Bramble

I thought the discussion was about religious belief, not immorality and crime. Is the criminal robbing your house doing because of his religion? Doubtful. He's probably doing it to feed his drug addiction. So, A Wiccan meditating to her goddess in front of her altar, and a Catholic praying the rosary to Mother Mary--these are immoral acts because they are not Christian( according to TWI type definition of Christianity-- I myself consider Catholics Christians) on par with robbery and other criminal activity? Really, I think if you would look at even broad definitions of different religions, they all have similarities on rules/laws/beliefs about don't harm others. http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I don't believe any one can prove that their religion/faith is fact, the TRUTH etc. They can believe it with in themselves, they can persuade others who may or may not have the same type of religious experience, that's all. Some will miss out on the religious experience or what ever, some will find something out there that speaks to them but is different than another's. And yet, many people are more than willing to demonize beliefs not their own-- sometimes it is even their doctrine and dogma as we saw in TWI--, which IMO is a great human error that leads to nothing good, no matter which religion is slamming another. Demonizatrion, oppression, forced conformity, violence--they all seem to be on the same downward path to me. As far as having a savior, so I know mine is true...I don't believe in the concept of fallen man or a fallen world, so I see no need for a savior. Nor have I seen people who have a savior as being better people with better lives than those who don't have a savior. To some it seems very obviously true that there is a savior, and that the world is now a much better place because of the savior and the truth...shrug, I don't see that. Personally, I think it is a bizarre thing to say, "My unproven truth is the real truth, all others unproven truths are false and evil."

Yeah, I'm missing the point. But then I'm not Christian and don't see the whole forgiveness doctrine like you do, or the "Light" afflictions doctrine, either. I'll say it again. I think there are many many people, plain ordinary people, who have not gone around causing great damage to others. I have far greater respect for those ordinary people who lived ordinary lives being decent people, good friends and loving parents than I do for great church leaders with all the super de dooper doctrine who leave a wake of damaged lives behind them. So what ever you position is in all this, I obviously haven't gotten it. You seem to flip around. I guess it is some kind of change your life, turn to Jesus, all eternity is what counts type message.

Sheesh EP, every time you post you make CES sound just like TWI! In TWI it was Worse to be unforgiving(ooo, bitter!) and Speak up about a problem where believers were being hurt than to be the leader who was hurting the believers. Basically, you're saying shut up and take it, They're the men of GAWD so it's necessary for the movement of the word that You Shut Up and Forgive! That, in my view, is Christianity at its ugliest.

I think the TWI model of leadership might play a role in this discussion. TWI leadership being charismatic, great public speakers, a aura of authority and command, flash and dash..though their personal life might be in shambles, no one was supposed to notice. We often concluded that boy, howdy, he can teach the Word, it must be a gift ministry, when it may well have been a combination of personality, natural ability and good training. Even in groups like WOW families, this played out. A total a h0le wow who got plenty of people in the class was lauded, while others who plodded through trying to be good people got ignored due to their lack of charisma and numbers( and no, I'm not whining about my wow year. We had waay other issues going on!) Aggressive, out going, bold personalities were seen as leadership potential, while the quiet careful thoughtful folk weren't seen as having 'natural leadership ability.'

Why would I say such a shocking thing? Expendable people were very much a part if TWI. It was common during the nineties to see someone's life shredded one week, and the next week everyone pretend like it never happened, and talk about how blessed they were, while that shredded person got to try to pull their lives together. Shred em up, kick em out, on with the things of the ministry. Don't see that the apple fell very far from the tree.

I disagree. The evil wasn't minimal to the people who experienced it. I have no interest in a religion or god who makes people expendable for the movement of his great Truth. Ignoring evil, the renewed mind at work. No, thanks. You can keep your wonderful healing(?) Truth. Who wants that stuff? I feel dirty just considering that type of thought.

Teaching on my wow year (early 80s)from Corps : Don't Dial a Derelect. We were meeting many many poor young people with minimum wage jobs, crappy apartments--or maybe they just slept at several different friend's houses because they didn't really have a place. Getting the money together for the class was a huge issue for these kids. Our corps leadership wanted us to move up into professional, middle class people.

You must understand that that type of reproof session is really all about the leader! He is showing you how important and godly he is with the rage of an offended man o gawd. You have offended him, spiritually! Your response, the one he wants, is to do everything he says, with out question, agree to every conclusion he reached( because to not agree with him just shows your great spiritual immaturity!) You really should write him a letter, thanking him from caring so much for you, for standing in the gap for you, etc. He would like that. If you hear mumurings and disputings from your fellow reprovees, report them to your leadership!!! They love a snitch, it makes their spiritual work so much easier. Unless, of course, you are closely related to a big high muckymuck, like a region coord or a cabinent member, who will be willing to chop that guy down for you. But only for you, not your buddies. Welcome to TWI.

Just gotta say, it seems to me that if a minister devoted his full time career to the work of the ministry--for say, twenty to thirty years!-- teaching the 'greatest known truth since the first century church,' there would be more good fruit to show for it than broken marriages, broken friendships, law suits, internal power plays and weird prophecies and manipulations. Something basic and important is wrong. IMO, to continue following these leaders is foolish.

In my opinion, division wouldn't be a huge issue if Christian groups would give up the idea that that their particular doctrine is the Great All truth and everyone else is Wrong. Look around, there are many different doctrines under the Christian umbrella. Who would ever have the length of life and resources to sift through each and every one and evaluate them? They didn't pick different doctrines for no reason--there was thought of some sort behind it. Maybe they have good reasons for their particular differences.

I think in TWI we bought into a fantasy that life can and should be wonderful all the time. But it is not. Every life has good times and bad. And lots of times we are contributors to the good or the bad, but not always, because chaotic things we don't control happen. Like accidents, or unexpected inheritances. In TWI we believed we were responsible for all of it--even the stuff that hit out of the blue. So not only did we have the pressure caused by the life experience, we also had inner and outer pressure of our belief system and fellow believers. No wonder people were anxious and depressed, trying to figure out how they made some chaotic event happen. And then if we did fail in some way, it was huge. We let down God by not believing... Remember the non Way wedding vows, for better for worse, in sickness and in health etc? In TWi we refused accept that bad times happen to good people. But they do, all the time, all through human history. No one has found the magic cure all to make life all UP and never DOWN. And if it was all Up, would we appreciate it? Isn't one of the sweet things about good times the knowledge that life could be bad or hurtful? I am sorry for your tough times, Another Spot. I do hope things will get better soon.

I wonder what Way you were in? What percent were you giving? Were you an adult when you left or still at home with your parents?

The leadership in power now in TWI supported LCM. They managed to keep their leadership positions during his reign of insane legalism. They followed the company line. They cleaned out the Household and marked and avoided with the best of them. They have offered no apologies to anyone who's marriage they busted up, or families they hurt, friendships they ended, people they slandered publicly. Yup, glad you've got it covered.

Good luck with that move back into TWI. Be aware that truth in TWI is what ever they tell you it is. Your opinion or knowledge of the Word will mean nothing. You will be the lowest of the low, under scrutiny. Remember, many things taught in VPW/PFAL days are now 'old wine skins.' But, suck it up, say yes, sir, obey obey obey your leadership and you'll do fine.

Estimated Prophet, are we talking about the same thing? You, of your own free will, choose to go to someone you believe has spiritual insight or prophcey,whatever, to get something confirmed that you think God might be trying to tell you. I have no problem with that. Heck, I've had my cards read before. Here is problem#1. Are you then required to obey that person's prophesy, on pain of divorce or mark and avoid? You are expected to make changes A,B and C? It becomes their business? The business of the elders in your church? Problem #2. People who you haven't asked to prophesy for you suddenly pop up with wacky stuff about you that God told them. Your husband, being so full of love and stuff, divorces you because you are wacky, the prophets said so. Obviously their words must be obeyed. I got a big problem with that. I would call that boundary jumping, people being busybodies. That's personal prophecy? Where the person prophesied about is like in third person ? God told me to tell you that your wife... That you would still consider those people church leaders and elders boggles my mind. Well, not really. Twenty years in TWI-- I know that people are often expendable for the Work of the Ministry.

Heehee--can't we just talk about them on an internet forum, or fire them (if we're in that position)? Stoning is sooo last millenium. Some denoms have a congregational vote of condfidence--maybe we should take one!

I suspect the spider prophecies didn't resonate so much within Elizabeth. But it looks like the system she was in wouldn't allow for her to disagree with the 'prophets of God'. I dunno--seems to me this practice is like explaing the virtues and benefits of a roaring fire and then handing a box of matches to your four year old. But then I see 'leadership' in the same light. Since so few can actually handle the responsibility, there needs to be safe guards and balancing of powers to protect the little people. But people want to have that fantasy of the stupendous tapped in leader--it makes things so much easier, just do what you're told...he's a man of Gawd, he can't be wrong...

And another thing! I keep reading about, people are fallen, they make mistakes, they need forgiveness etc. OKAY, fine. But, if I made a mistake that totally mangled some one's life, that involved meetings and trying to get this person to obey my words AND I came to the realization that I had nearly destroyed another person...well, that is a little more than just a mistake to be forgiven, on with the next. That is a destructive way of belief and living. I would think realizing something like that would cause a profound change in some one's life, not just a 'Oh, blew it there, but God forgives me. I'm a leader, it's to be expected that sometimes I'll hurt people...What's next on my leadership plate?' Call me a Pollyanna, but I think that there are many many people who go through life without causing huge damage to others. Plain, ordinary non-leadership people. Or maybe I've just known some exceptional people...

More --some of the things we've read about the practice involve someone having visions about another person, then taking action against that other person as a result of the visions, speaking about the visions to other people, etc. Now, that looks like behind the scenes manipulation to me. 'God told me so & so was eeeviiill'. And others listened and took action. All people generated. SHE hears from the diety, we must listen to HER. Wouldn't your deity tell you personally, if your spouse or another person in your life was truly evil? The whole set up looks like an open door to let people manipulate and abuse each other! Where's the safe guards?

I guess I don't understand the whole personal prophecy thing. It requires another person to prohesy about your life, right?, Words of edification, exhortation and comfort( except for when they aren't and involve spiders etc) Why do you need another person to prophesy for your life? Does your God nor deal with you directly? It has to be through someone else? So instead of trying to hear directly from your God, you go to someone else? Seems way to easy to me. Seems like some kind of bypass in the relationship to your diety. Instead of doing the hard work of learning to listen, you go to someone else, who hopefully has done the hard work? Seems people centered, not diety centered.

When the LCM's oh so serious Y2K video hit we lived in a large city that aways had huge traffic jams, crime, gangs etc. I told hubby we ought to move near my family. Why? Because my relatives in the boonies all hunt, fish, butcher, can, harvest wood, heat with wood, eat mostly deer, elk and salmon for meat. If anyone could survive a world wide melt down it would be those folks! I did get a dog out of the Y2K deal. I'd wanted one for years but --major pet, you know. Y2K made it justifiable(is that a word?) Good for protection, ya know.

LCM had the whole Y2K-the-world-as we-know-it could-end thing. What a mess. People were trying to store cash, an old lady in my fellowship bought a gun, we had to do a 'home inventory' of everything in every room, cupboard and drawer to turn in. We were supposed to get extra bottles of perscription meds, and extra antibiotics. Sheesh--doctors weren't going to prescribe unneeded antibiotics so you could self medicate! And our perscription drug plan wouldn't let you stockpile several months ahead. We left prior to the Big Day, but I'm sure it was the believing action of the Household that saved the World.

I think that if a person experiences harm and damage from an event others say is healthy and personally fulfilling, then those who had a bad experience should speak up, loudly. That is, if they care about other humans who might have a similar damaging experience, and are on the cusp of a decision. To me, to decide the experience was damaging because they weren't 'personally responsible' enough, to shut up about harmful things because they 'believed ' it into being, is further damage to that person, and to others down the road. It takes those that do evil to others off the hook. Saw alot of that in TWI--to speak about a problem, to be 'bitter' and 'negative' was worse than actually doing the evil to your brother. Lots of wiggle room in 'sin,' seems to me. Don't let the 'victim haters' shut you up! Edited, as always, for typos.

By the time we left TWI towards the end of LCM's reign, even having a cold was a cause for condemnation and suspiciscion. Unless you were in the HFC family--then it was the fault of the little people for dragging themselves or sick children to Household Fellowship and getting their nasty cootiesgerms on the godly hfc family. After a while, we ceased asking for prayer or ministering, it was better to just keep your mouth shut(after 1997 or so.) I had a kid in kindergarten who got the flu--followed by strep, double ear infections and pneumonia. Sick kid, but not hospitalized, just antibiotics etc. Hubby and I switched off week night HF so the kids would get to bed on time for school, otherwise they wouldn't get to bed until nearly 10 pm. I went to HF that night, didn't say a word. My thinking was that the nasty reproof would damage my believing, get me all upset and stressed, and put my 5yr old in deeper danger, since as the Mom, I was responsible for such things. Fun times. I did want to leave, but hubby didn't during this time frame. Or, more accurately, he was afraid bad things would happen if we left. As it turned out, alot of bad things ceased when we left!