Bramble

Perhaps the abuse was so huge to the victim, so traumatic and life changing, that it is always present to one degree or another, coloring everything. Perhaps it some how defines who they are today, and by retelling it they reassure themselves that they are not there now, that it was bad, but it happened then, not today. I have friend who lost a fiance in a bad car accident which she survived. She has retold the story of the accident many times, I think to try to explain who she is to herself as well as to others. If you don't know this about her, you don't know her at all...

There was a lot of Red Cross Disaster prep stuff floating around, survivalist type info. I'm sure some people at HQ were kept very busy. People in my fellowship were buying guns. We were supposed to have supplies for a month. Now think about that. A gallon a water a day per person for a MONTH. Plus food, medicine sanitary supplies etc etc. Cash. Stock pile perscription meds.

During LCM's Y2K extravaganza they seemed to think they were so well prepared for a world melt down that their believing preparation Saved the Whole World from mass destruction..

Don't leave unless you feel it is best for you. You can always put the Iams on ignore. And since you mentioned the stalking, others will be sure to notice if it happens some more. Don't feel you must be on the run because of some other poster or to keep the peace. This is not a peaceful place. Actually, your leaving is what some posters might like, for oppositional views to their own to just shut up. ( 'Shut up' is treated like cussing in my home) And usually before a forum war ends in a banning, the thread ends up in Soap Opera.

:huh: I must have missed something here. But I do hope that ex TWI who suspect or wonder if they might be depressed seek help outside of the Way doctrine help, like from a good physician. Renewing the mind doesn't help much if your really big symptoms involve sleep problems or short term memory loss. Medication doesn't take away your ability to feel, make you numb, like LCM taught. It certainly can help many people.

I am NOT on the clean up crew for this!

The fall and perfection...I don't believe the nature of man is any different today than it was in the beginning. I don't see that a savior has changed the essence of humankind I don't think perfection even enters into human life. Humans are complex beings, with strengths and weaknesses, with ability to learn and change for the better or for the worse. A myriad of differences, but all human. I don't think there was a time before the fall where humans were more perfect. I think they were just human, like they are today. As far as a friend telling me I'm wrong or in danger due to religious beliefs, I think that is silly. I'm not sacrificing kittens on the devil's altar, afterall--and don't knpow anyone who is. Would my life be better if I believed like you? We were big on that back in the day, witnessing. Made alot of promises that worked in the good times but didn't in the bad times. During the bad times we had to back pedal, find excuses, faults, open doors... No religion gives a person a perfect life, all ups and no downs. I don't think that is the nature of life.Yes, I do believe people can improve their lives by being Chrisitian. But I've also seen people have that same type of growth experience in pagan faiths and as non religious people. I think it is a myth that Christians are way better people, that non Christians have awful lives full of selfishness and strife. So do, some don't--some Christians do and don't.

Intimidation tactics? I'm just saying it the way I see it. I would say that perhaps you are painting me with a darker brush than my posts warrant. But *shrug* --People can read for themselves, decide for themselves. Maybe that is the real issue--unorthodox ideas might look appealing. I noticed you're only going after the Non Christians. But feel free to point me to a post where that thought is wrong, and you're taking on a Christian. There's no GSC rule that 'unbelievers' have to shut up, afterall, or that only Christians have the right to talk about Life after Death. PS. I'm a woman. I'm glad you enjoyed the blog, Roy.

Thanks for your reply Roy. You remind me of a blog post I read not too long ago. http://www.progressivechristiansuniting.or...an-exclusivism/ Sunesis, so you've seen me busting people's chops? What am I supposed to do--just say yes you're right, I'll try to see to your way, you're the expert, o most holy one? So, Lindy's a troll and I'm a chops buster because we don't follow your doctrine? We--gasp!-- have different and uncomfortable views? I say, good! Gosh, what about George Aar and Oakspear--are you thinking of a slur to define them, too? There are what, 4 or 5 non Christians on these forums and you can't handle it? Subtle and mocking...hmmm. I have been called a smart mouth before. It's an aspect of my personality I doubt will go away. I reigned it in during my TWI days--unless I was mocking the non TWI's, which of course was okay. Even when I'm not saying it, I'm thinking it. Scolding won't work--I've been scolded, more than once, even. You can always use the ignore feature. Welcome to the Big Wide World.

Hmmm, well. In general being wrong is a bad thing. The What if your wrong? phrase seems to imply something not so good to me, too. But then, that is where a lot of Christian doctrines are at--Our One Right Way or dire trouble...an exclusionary religion. Okay T&O I get where you are coming from. I don't personally believe in the fallen man/need for a savior scenario. In the fear motivation context--my children have run into this quite a bit over the years, as they visit churches and hang out with Christian friends. They have noticed it ( heard the 'You're going to hell speech'), it has bothered them...we have talked about fear motivation with them.

Lindyhopper has participated in these forums for a long time, he is hardly a troll. Also, I have heard a Christianm minister talk about the differences in Paul's theology and Jesus' theology, it is not a new 'troll' subjuct.

So what about those that do believe in an afterlife, or eternity but are not Chrisitian, like a Hindu or some other non Chrisrian religion. Many of them believe and teach some sort of afterlife.Their will might be to live forever. Does free will then work? Or is is only free will to be a Christian or not?

??? I can read books, I often do. I can also chat on a forum. What's your point? Should we have a book list rather than a discussion forum? I don't personally believe in hell, though I do believe that sooner or later we reap what we sow--might be in life or death or the next life. I don't believe what religious beliefs one has have anything to do with it, though those beliefs can have alot to do with what you sow and reap( or karma or Law of returns)... I think it is a natural order/experience that all humans face, like birth and death.

I grew up in a church where Hell was always a misstep and a mack truck away. Fightening to a child. In TWI the born again doctrine was very freeing--no fear there. Plus, unbelievers just dying *poof *gone seemed more merciful than eternity in hell. Mainstream churches i attended after TWI barely acknowledged hell. As a non Christian I sometimes meet people who are afraid for my soul for me( I'm not afraid for my soul). Not many-- I am not 'out of the closet' much in my community for personal and family reasons. Most of these people are a traditional type of Christian--trinitarian, heaven and hell classic, and have gotten to know me over a number of years and eventually pick up that I have 'alternative' beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, I've left the 'dangerous' belief system behind( referring to TWI in the LCM reign of terror--I am not bashing Christianity.) I have a much better warning system now for boundary jumpers, for those that want a piece of me, have an agenda behind their friendliness. Danger due to my beliefs, eternal consequences...some believe that's where I'm headed. What is the danger in being non Christian? Is it different if you are an athiest? Jewish? Wiccan? Is it hell? Devil spirits? Bad things happening in Real Life?

Ahh. So, somehow, in all my years in one form of Christianity or another( I didn't 'officially' start thinking of myself as Wiccan until I was 46 or so) I either picked all the wrong Christian groups or I'm just too spiritually dull to know what you know. If only I were more special so I could figure out which of the gazillion Christian churches/groups/doctrines etc would teach me the right things that you know, T&O.

The eternal consequences of choice. Personally, I have no great respect for a god who will evaporated, dunk in a lake of fire, stick in eternal hell or what have you--anyone who isn't part of his religion. The cruel bully guys who just happened to pick Christianity get in, that warm and kind Hindu couple down the street are out. I can't say that I have seen Christians as superior people to unbelievers, adn more deserving of eternal goodness. SOme where, some weren't. I equate the bad eternal consequences for not being Christian to fear motivation. It is very effective. Not interested.

Hmmm. Additions in red are mine.

Belief in the unseen is common to many faiths, not just Christianity. And the tongue in cheek answer to Oak did not look tongue and cheek to me, Bliss. I saw it in a much less friendly light.

I don't think it would, and I wonder if it isn't already present in some of the more liberal churches? There is a mainstream church in my area that talks about 'sacred space,' God the Mother, does guided meditations etc...seems right up their alley. Oakspear--ahh, the universe! I myself believe that both order and chaos are equally present, so while we strive to order our world, chaos may erupt!

Bliss, the modern goddess religions/pagan Wiccan beliefs are not 'revealed' religions. They are experiential. Religions of the book are considered to be Christianity, Judaism and Moslem--and they are not seen as superior to other religions, and so must be copied with a pagan 'revealed' scripture. There are myths and legends, indigenous beliefs to learn from, also modern writings, like the Charge of the Goddess, about the goddess, but they are not 'scripture.' Many pagan beliefs are considered 'earth based'. We see the lessons of the goddess in the cycles of nature, cycles of the moon, in animal life and plant life too. Many pagans believe that the goddess is everywhere present, in every thing--immanent--and universally present, transcendant. In the major religions of the Books(Christianity, Judaism and Moslem) god is transcendant only, not immanent. Unlike Christianity, modern pagans/goddess beliefs do not believe in the Fall, man's fallen nature, original sin or the need for a savior. For the most part we are the children of the goddess, we are sacred as is the earth. All things are erlated,we are all part of a great whole... Wiccans believe in a balance between the goddess and the god--some say they are duo theistic, not really polytheistic. Others are hard polytheists, and others see all gods and godesses as parts of the ONE. If you ask about the goddess, they might ask you--"Which one?" Also, since pagans are pretty much against the whole witnessing thing--artificial persuasion--many would think if you have questions about the goddess, you should go seek the answers yourself.

How many leaders in TWI or TWI spin offs have had years of chronic illness while being a leader? Seems to be those are issues that keep people out of leadership positions in TWI--"Step down and get your life together" would be the kindest way I've seen it managed in TWI. Other ways were more harsh. How many people in TWI or spin offs actually talk about their great deliverance from devil spirit possession? ( Well, sometimes people would talk about their drug trips in the 60s or beingf a card carrying Roman Catholic who got great deliverance from devil spirits.) Very few I'll bet. In the TWI I knew you'd always be under a cloud of suspiscion.

I wouldn't want to be the 'hopeful' spirit possesed depressed person who gets the spirit out but is afterwards still depressed. How many times did you get ministered to, only to have the illness take its natural course anyway? Or get worse adn require medical help? I for one never had clear cut miracles from ministering, though I got ministered to all the time. So then depressed person gets the added pressure of trying to figure out how the devil spirit got back in, where the open door is etc...

Doctrines don't have to be scripture based. Christian doctrines do, I guess, but others, not so much. They can be more like ideas, world views, not anything chapter and verse.

I feel so bad for those in these groups who are trying to deal with depression by stop thought renewed mind techniques. How do those techniques help with other symptoms, like loss of concentration, sleep issues or short term memory issues? There is alot more to depression than sad/bad thoughts! Ignorance all around.

Honestly, to me it sounds like you are saying "Give the men and women who lead God's people and speak his Word a pass. Forgive them for the lives they destroy, because all sin is equal and they are no worse than you. They know the Word and speak it, that is what really matters. They are chosen by God with gift ministries and we in the body need to follow them, no matter what. Let them keep their positions of power over people, God will work it out at the Bema. Don't you trust God?" If that's what you are speaking for your God, then no, I don't know him, nor want to.