Bramble

Didn't LCM get into this in his last Adv class? The 'earth was divided section' Peleg and all that? I threw my sylabus away, so I can't look it up.

I have a good friend who lives in Australia--gorgeous area near the beach. But it is expensive there, from what I understand.

Hamilton, MT is close to Missoula, which has great eating establishments and a really vibrant night life/theater/arts--plus UofM Grizzly Football. There are a number of small towns surrounding Missoula, too. Love Missoula! One of my brothers lives there. I have relatives all over the NW Montana/Idaho/Spokane areaa. One great career for western Montana is real estate, which is booming. My sis is a realator and she is doing really well. I think Hamilton is easier to buy into than Whitefish, but I expect any property there would become a good investment. And all the rivers around there are great for rafting. There are other, less popular places in Montana that are lovely--George town Lake/Pintler Scenic area, Seeley/Swan area, small towns near Helena. But, few jobs. Lewistown Mt, in Central mT, is a nice, pretty Wal Mart-less town in the Judith Mountains. In fact, there are several MTN ranges around there. I think it will be a hot property area one day. I know it is an area Montana natives talk about moving to!

There are jobs, but the smaller the town, the fewer the jobs. The money comes from the tourist industry and agriculture, no factories with high wages. Service jobs are around, nurses can get jobs anywhere. Health insurance is always an issue with small employers(under 50 employees). I basically work for health insurance. Hubby and I together do not make what he made alone when we lived in a big midwestern city. But we don't have gangs, poor schools, crime or traffic either.

Whitefish, Montana or Hamilton MT, both in the western Rockies. Lovely cities, low crime, lots of retired folk moving in, lots of recreation available. Housing's expensive, though.

I didn't see Mike Martin on the clips--but i only watched a little of it.

I posted a link to an article on the modern goddess movement in OPEN on the Wicca thread. Recently i spent some time reading about Tiamat, snake goddesses, creation myhts on the net, some very interesting things. It is a large area of study, but the serpentasa symbol of the goddess or of creation seems to be pretty prevalent in ancient beliefs. I'd like to have the time to study it more, read the actual myrhs etc.

This discussion is pretty much over I think, but I saw this article that reflects more what I have seen in the Wicca/goddess movement, and more of the interest of the few RL witchy types I know, and the online pals I have made over the past few years. Perhaps it is generational--almost everyone that I know well is in their forties or fifties, married, kids, grandkids, mortgages, long histories in churches etc. http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=us...ds&id=11712

Hmmm, I think I wore a skirt just like that back in '76 when I waitressed at a pancake house. But we had snappy orange gingham pinafore aprons. Plus the tips--$70 to $100 on a Sunday-- made it worth the polyester! That is soooo sad.

Some Wiccans are really into magic. I can't tell you if this is what is the current magical thought, because I don't study magic. Vision, intent, raising energy, that I am somewhat familiar with. Quantum theory and psychic hygiene not so much. I know that some covens have a huge reading/study list that includes things like ceremonial magic, Enochian magic, older things like Key of Solomen and things like that. I do know the Corellian /witch school is a subject of discussion on pagan forums. Some people love them, some think they are flakey.

I wasn't deeply offended. Wicca is always being confused with devil worship/satanic worship/wicked deeds. I think it is good for people to have more accurate information.

Many things that aren't Wiccan get confused with Wicca--for instance Satanic Bible, the animal sacrifice stuff, Quija board( which I personally believe is like announcing to everyone at a crowded bar that your home is always unlocked, come on over any time). Those may be witchcraft but not Wicca. Or they get confused with TV shows like Charmed or movies like the Craft which show fantasy or malevolent witchcraft. Some Wiccans are really into spells, other never or rarely are interested. Wicca is somewhat an umbrella term, with traditions being somewhat like denominations of Christianity. So Gardnerian Wiccans would use a Gardnerian book of shadows. Most Wiccan make their own, in fact the whole scrap book thing is very popular among some Wiccans. A coven would have a common one, but individaul members probably have their own personal one. I don't know numbers, I don't think anyone does, but I would guess that far more Wiccans are not involved in any organized group or coven. Solitaries, families, small groups of friends, nothing on paper that can be counted. Religious Tolerance .org has some good definitions, but since this is not a revealed with a set scripture religion there are many differences. Tried to post this above but it didn't format correctly. From religious tolerance: Their beliefs include: Wiccan Deities: Beliefs differ: Most Wiccans believe that a creative force exists in the universe, which is sometimes called "The One" or " The All". Little can be known of this force. Most regard the Goddess and the God as representing the female and male aspects of the All. These deities are not "out there somewhere;" they are immanent in the world.Many regard various pagan Gods and Goddesses (Pan, Athena, Diana, Brigit, Zeus, Odin, etc.) as representing various aspects of the God and Goddess. The term "Wicca" normally implies that the person's religion is based upon Celtic spiritual concepts, deities, and seasonal days of celebration. Some Wiccans include beliefs, practices and symbols from ancient Pagan religions (e.g. Egyptian, Greek, various mystery religions, Roman, Sumerian) or upon Aboriginal religions (Native American Spirituality, Shamanism). Some Wiccans are actually agnostics, who take no position on the existence of a supreme being or beings. They look upon the Goddess and the God as archetypes, based on myth.It cannot be stressed enough that Wiccans have no supernatural being in their pantheon of deities who resembles the Christian-Muslim Satan. [/font] Respect for Nature: Wicca is a natural religion, grounded in the earth. All living things (including stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, rocks) are regarded as having a spirit. Many Wiccan rituals deal with bringing harmony and healing to nature. Wiccans tend to share a great concern for the environment. Gender equality: Wiccans celebrate the sexual polarity of nature. For example, the fertilizing rain is one manifestation of the male principle; the nurturing earth symbolizes the female. Females are respected as equal (and sometimes at a slightly higher rank) to males. A priestess is often the most senior person among coven -- a local group of Wiccans. They aim for a female-male balance in most of their covens (local groups), although men are typically in the minority. Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. Some Wiccans celebrate "the Great Rite" which involves ritual sexual intercourse. However, it is consensually performed by a committed couple in private. Afterlife: Wiccans have a wide range of beliefs. Some believe in ancient legends of a Summerland where souls go after death. Here, they meet with others who have gone before, review and integrate their previous lives on earth, and are eventually reincarnated into the body of a new born. Some believe that after many such cycles -- perhaps some as female and others as male; some lives with a high standard of living and others in poverty; some in positions of power and others suffering oppression -- that the individual accumulates sufficient experience to go on to another level of existence about which we know nothing. Some see an individual's personality, memory, abilities, talents, etc. as functions of the human brain, which degrades and disintegrates at death. They no not anticipate any form of continuity after death. Other Wiccans anticipate continuity after death in some very narrow senses: That the molecules that go to make up our bodies may in turn be incorporated in other living entities;That our influences on children, friends, and society in general will continue to have influences on the next generations. Three-fold Law (a.k.a. the Law of Return) The law states that: "All good that a person does to another returns three fold in this life; harm is also returned three fold." This belief strongly motivates each Wiccan to avoid attempting to dominate, manipulate, control, or harm another person.

The satanic bible is not Wiccan. I'm not sure who it belongs to, probably the same crowd that does the Black Mass, which isn't Wiccan either. Wiccans don't believe in Satan as faar as i know. Satan is Christian.

WrdsNwrks had a very negative and scary experience with Wiccans. I am not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying those violent and manipulative acts are not hallmarks of the religion, and that that group doesn't sound Wiccan at all to me. Anyone getting involved in a new group should be cautious and use common sense safety measures, like meeting in a public places, telling someone where you are going, who you are meeting etc. If I sounded skeptical it is because I have read too many Jack Chick tracts!

Cursing would be a very bad thing to do, with dire consequences for the curser. There might be Wiccans who would attempt one, or non Wiccan witches. It would be a desperate last measure, I would think, as in a life or death type issue. I don't know of anyone who has cursed another--the Wiccans/ witchy types I know would more likely do protection spells, or a binding spell, to keep the person away. Or restraining orders. I'm not very familiar with covens, though I know some folks in the local one and have attended a few open circle things with them. They are not accepting new members, and I wouldn't be interested anyway. I have heard that they have a rigorous study schedule. They wouldn't consider anyone under 18, and determine if someone is a 'proper' person because someone with huge needs and problems should take care of those first. I do not know if the local group is authoritarian or democratic in nature. I could be wrong, but I think the high priestess is high priestess in the coven's business, not of the members personal lives. The rituals I have attended had nothing to do with cursing or specific people--they were raising energy for the earth, for healing etc or celebrating. Sometimes the local coven does Saturday seminars at a local new age store as a way of giving. Not to gain members--they are closed to new membership. I sometimes meet with a couple friends for Wheel of the Year holidays. I suspect many such tiny groups exist, then dissolve, then start again.... There are larger organizations that do ordain clergy, I believe there are a few ordained pagans in the state who do weddings etc. One thing that would be different than a twig--covens don't meet several times a week, or live together to my knowledge. No one will inspect your sock drawer.They might actually have different beliefs/dieties and practices in their private worship, but in the coven they have agreed to do things a certain way and use certain symbols /tools in common. Wicca is not a revealed or confessed belief system, more one of shared practices.

Ya'll might be surprised to know that many Wiccans believe that spellwork done with out someone's express desire or permission is manipulative magic(as in black, some would call it.) And the witch/spellcaster who does a spell 'gone wrong' is still responsible for the mess, even if they intended good, and receives that return for the mess they made. This causes many to be cautious in such matters. You also might be surprised to know that many Wiccans also believe that Chrisrtian prayer is a form of spell work( Wiccans often pray to their dieties)--trying to affect change on a spiritual plane, and that Christians who pray for Wiccans ( or anyone really) to change and become Christian with out that persons permission are trying to override that person's free will--it is a form of manipulative( some would say black) magic. Most Wiccans believe in a law of returns-- so if what you are putting out there is manipulative, then what you get back will be, too. I believe this explains a great deal of my negative TWI experience. Witnessing is seen as interfering in a person' journey to the diety/spirituality (what have you, that is right and fulfilling for them. People should search for themselves.

The moon has an association with the underworld where the dead were. The moon rose from below the earth, and set under the earth, so it was a connection with the dead. Modern Wiccans see the phazes of the moon to represent both the triple goddess and the life stages of a woman, maiden, mother, crone. The full moon was believed to bring madness (lunacy) or enlightenment. Wiccans have a ritual called drawing down the moon where the high priestess evokes the goddess with in herself. She may speak words that sound to me quite like Word of prophecy,which is seen as enlightenment from the goddess. The full moon is believed to empower.

This is long: We left at the end of the nineties after four or five years of screw tightening. The more we did, the more exhausted we were, and the more trouble we were in, the more we had to do…. It seemed like nearly every area of our lives was open for scrutiny, and while in way doctrine the husband was the head of the family, in reality our HFC and Limb coord trumped hubby. Our HFC had a string of couples whose marriages broke up or they left the ministry from his fellowship, in fact the couple who became the asst co ords after we walked split up, and we have since heard from several couples. Usually it was the wife who was the problem, it certainly was with us. We often split fellowship nights because we had kids in grade school who just couldn’t stay up that late—I would be treated harshly, hubby would get the pat on the back…this went on for years. HFC wifey barely even spoke to me, and never once called to chat or did anything friendly in all the years I was in their fellowship. Cold. I wanted to leave a few years before we did, but hubby didn’t want to—“Where would we go?” I basically shut my mouth and went along with business as usual. The last year we were in I worked pretty hard to keep my kids away from the fellowship, and hubby did too, even though we never talked about it.. Our kids were never ever good enough—even though they were and are well behaved, get good grades, are kind and friendly, teachers love them… We stayed out of any big reproof issues for a year or so, but then something came up, and the way this stuff went, it would start with one issue, like finances or ministry priorities or what ever, and by the time it was over, it would be in all kinds of other areas—marriage, family, what ever, plus it all would be communicated to the limb and maybe to the region co ord, too. We didn’t leave because we knew they were off the word or anything like that. We left because we didn’t think we would survive another ‘reproof’ cycle as a couple. I already had tentative plan to move to a place where I could get a job immediately, and cheap housing, if things went bad, plus for the first time in years we had two cars. I didn’t want to, but I thought maybe hubby would wake up if I took drastic measures. By this time though hubby a had seen and overheard a few things his ol’ buddy the HFC aimed at me. So when a ‘We just want to help you’ session was pushed, we walked. At first we were not Marked and avoided—I think they thought we’d come back. But a month or so later we found out from a friend that we were. We lost all our friends but the one who still keeps in touch. After a few months we got into a CFF twig, but it was just like TWI. Right after our first fellowship, the co ord had all kinds of things we could do for them. We’d had that breather away, and it seemed and was rude and intrusive. It was weird being on our own, but also far less stressful. After that exways we knew tried to get us involved in different ex way groups. We got booklets and stuff,,, but we were just weary. Both of us put it all aside. And life continued to get better! And then it got worse, and then better...just life. Ups and downs, pebbles in the brook, life just like other people. not the perfect life of TWI, but real life. Wer found we could make good decisions just fine with out 'counsel' . Pretty sad to find that out in your forties. Eventually we hit some mainstream churches, and found them friendly but not ‘we’re your new best friend, friendly’. It was nice. While involved somewhat with various churches I read lot. We moved, too, across the country. I felt more free and more able to make decisions on my own, not be part of any group—groups are still hard. Hubby quit going all together, quit exway stuff—in fact after we moved we never reordered any tapes or anything. I continued to go because this is what mom’s do or something. I learned about different churches, I could see their reasoning on many issues…but I didn’t want to get deeply involved. That made me uncomfortable. I had read some Divine feminine stuff…and back before TWI I had a little interest in the witchcraft movement, though books etc were hard to find back then. I started reading Wicca books and websites. I had an ‘unverifiable personal’ gnosis type experience… felt as though I’d come home. Did the way we left make a difference? I think so. We didn’t leave with our twig or pals like many did after pop, so there was a big shift in lifestyle. It seemed that our exway acquaintances were either dealing with damaged lives, or trying to get us to do something with some ministry. And we were so sick of people trying to get us to do stuff, to change, to be different in this area or that area, read this, think that, go to this. I say we alot, but actually, hubby is pretty much agnostic, though he doesn't mind what I'm into since I never turned into some wacko. I'm pretty much the same porson I always was in my relationships with family and friends...

Dying gods, solar gods, vegetation gods, like Attis, Dionyisus, Mithras, tammus--all have similarities to the Christ. Some are really shocking in their similarities. The cross is a solar symbol from ancient times, in different forms. One form we all know is the swastika of Nazi fame, but its older meaning was one of abundance and good fortune. Halos are a solar diety symbol. There is art that predates Christ but is nearly indistiguishable from a Madonna and child of the Christian era. Modern Wiccans have a cycle of the year for the god--birth at the winter solstice, he is the lover at Beltaine(May day) and he dies at Samhain( halloween) the final harvest, the blood harvest(animals slaughtered before winter). All gods are one god--known in pagan circles as soft polytheism. A variation on that is All gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess. Hard polytheism sees each diety as a separate individual. This can be a heated topic in Wiccan forums. Two scholarly works that touch on some of this --Joseph Campbell's myth books( must reads!) and Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun, though it deals with British myth. * One thing i thought about while reading this discussion--the snake was an ancient symbol of regeneration and renewel, since it didn't appear to age. Interesting to me that the snake was the catalyst for change in the garden. Perhaps it could be understood in a more positive light as growth, moving to the next natural part of a cycle...

There are fertility gods, who die and have rebirth, related to vegetation, a cycle of birth, growth, death and rebirth.

When I was in TWI I felt certain that I had a great understanding of the Bible.After I left I saw that other Christian churches/doctrines have their reasons for believing scriptures their way...I don't believe there is one definative rightly divided interpretation of the Bible.

It is amazing how individuals react to different things. A friend of mine found out she had a wheat allergy, and as her digestive system cleared up, her depression did too. The wheat just messed up her system. Wanted to add-- my experience in TWI was that people deemed possessed received little (no)compassion and got the change instantly or leave attitude, plus their entire lives were deeply scrutinized for things they must change in obedience to leadership. Ugly and stressful procedure.

This is your personal experience?

There is more to depression than feeling sad. Some people manifest as angry and irritable, when really they are depressed. I myself did not manifest as sad--I was tired and couldn't remember anything. I also had speach halts. And for every 'the medicine just didn't work and made me worse' story, there are probably a hundred 'medicine worked well' stories. Just like for every 'he wasn't wearing a seatbelt and it saved his life' story you hear, there are probably hundreds who avoided serious injury by using a seatbelt. Medicine worked well for me, in a month's time I was sleeping, remembering and speaking normally and had a normal energy level. I have very mild side effects, mostly depending on when I take the med and with or without food. TWI was always about the quick fix--instant healing, instant cast out the spirit now they're whole, instant miracle money from heaven. Too many desparate people have run from one quick fix to another, trying to overcome something that takes actual time and effort to overcome--IMO. How many quick fixes to serious health problems really have worked? Also, depression may have nothing to do with the choices someone has made. It may be as beyond their control as say, deaths in the family or serious illness in a loved one. Other people may not have 'situational' depression, their's may be present no matter how good their life circumstances are.

Yeah, I figured that suggestion must have come down from HQ where they had their little pocket doctors. Sure, my family doc was going to prescribe all kinds of antibiotics just in case of Y2K melt down?