Bramble

Since someone keeps derailing this thread to have a personal non convsersation with me, I decided to reply after some thought. I was going to pm this, but since the thread has been derailed a bunch of times... It is a discussion forum, not a Jeaniam-said-it-so-the-discussion-is-over forum. Since you name dropped Wordwolf, maybe you should read his posts to see how he interacts with non Christians. He is never scolding or insulting, his words are not personally denigrating, yet he still stands for what he believes. Nor have I ever seen him pick out a poster to jump again and again. To me your reaction to a non Christian poster seems extreme, weird and rude. Also, damatic! If it continues on other threads etc, I will consider it stalking, and say so! Self proclaimed ( gosh I forgot to hire a proclaimer to announce me!), illogical, unable to make a meaningful contribution--and yet I still have as much right to post here as you do. And some people will read what I post. All your scolding or reproof or whatever that is, doesn't make me stop. So what's the point? Ego? Perceived personal authority to rid the forum of unbelieving posters? Maybe you should email Pawtucket to demand an affirmation of (your)faith before people can post. And you can run to hubby and tell him the evil unbeliever was mean to you. Run to your like minded believers and tell them you've been fighting in spiritual warfare. You've done nothing to make me care for what your opinion might be--done the opposite, in fact.

The whole concept of confronting the world with the word was bizarre. It assumed we had authority over people and could tell complete strangers how to live...like the time the HF wifey confronted a woman for her cluttered apartment while door to door witnessing. The woman, in her forties, probably some kind of professional(nice apartments) had no interst in coming to a fellowship, imagine that(and a few minutes later security found us and told us to leave). I think there was some idea that we had magic mind control over others--just by speaking 'the Word' people would flock to us. Scolding an unbeliever or nonChristian or non-like-you Christian for not believing in the Bible the way you do is pointless, and to expect another to bow down to your greater knowledge shows you've lost touch with the real world, IMO.

Also interesting is that the serpent was associated with goddess beliefs, with renewel, healing and rebirth in the ancient world. Also eternity, symbolized by the snake forming a circle with its tail.

I apologise to Shifra for the derail of her thread. It was kind of fun, though. Only on GSC.

That's just laughable. I don't have to say how you treat non Christians--it's right out there! You are the one that shows how you treat non Christians. eDITED BECAUSE i TYP GOOD.

Sigh. Once again, this thread is not about me. And are you absolutely positive no other non Christians are posting on this thread? Maybe you'd better question everyone! Who knows where one will lurk! One nice thing--people can see how you treat non Christians, and make their own conclusions about your doctrine. Agape or Arrogance?

I think it would be more just that the punishement was Eve's not all womens.

Wanted to add that I am not interested in an Iam war. Bait away.

I have seen this also, the no boundaries, where people end up giving away so much and end up empty. It happens all over, not just in church settings. I wonder though if that is not more due to the nature of predatory authorities than to the nature of love. Perhaps it is the context of where you place all that love and energy that makes the difference between unselfish giving and all used up. Finding people who will respect your boundaries is important. Sometimes you have to draw a line, say no more. I've been trying hard to teach my kids that--to recognise peer pressure, to recognise when you are being used, or intimidated--teens see it all now days. You don't have to accept someones perceived authority, you can think it through. Are they your teacher? Your boss? Is the request resonable? Etc. it is amazing what some 14 yr olds will try to wring out of each other. I was never taught that--my parents couldn't conceive of someone not being 'nice' to me, I'm sure! And how many of us, especially women raised in the sixties and seventies, where taught habits of service, caring and nurture--in the context of family--but ended up with caring and nurturing habits, with no boundaries to recognise 'not family.'

The 'deeper meaning' of agape is what I saw so much of in TWI. This is love. Huh? It wasn't love, it was arrogance in many instances. Oh, but you're not spiritual or mature enough to understand. Trust me, I know... I'm wary of people who have super spiritual knowledge of love but treat others...not well, because that is how you love someone like that. Its allowed. God told me it would wake them up. It just looks extreme and cruel. Trust me... Even on this thread we have different definitions of what agape is. Some say it is love that all humans are capable of. Some say only born again Christians can love agape. Some say it is the Love of God in manifestation in the household. Perhaps the point of the poem was that another human, in a different belief system, far away from Chrsitian and Bible sources, seemed to know something about love.

Wiccans and pagans have been trying to get the grave marker symbol for years. The Way int would have to apply for the Way tree or Holy spirit dove if they are 'owned' by TWI. An organization has to do the application process or it will be denied. One individual can't get a new symbol for their family member, it has to be through an organization/church.

I can honestly say that I do not know what happens in the afterlife. People who say they do know are talking about faith, not actual knowledge. As a pagan in a nature based belief system, I believe that earthly life reflects the Upper/Spiritual World... things important in this life like family, are important in the next. Wiccans sometimes call it Summerland, others have different names--Avalon, Tir Na Nog... The earth naturally recycles, I think the spiritual life or spark does the same. But like all matters of faith dealing with afterlife, I can't prove it. Nor do I think it is important to prove. Waste of time--deals with a plane we are not part of in this life.

Ten years is along time, White Dove, especially since other non Christians groups got approval during that time. Probably the lawsuit that was finally filed had something to do with the timing. I don't think TWI would have any trouble--except dead soldiers weren't 'believing' so why would TWI honor them?

As the nineties progrssed, it was difficult to find any time for friends. For instance, we were supposed to listen to the SNS tape alone and with our spouse. Plus all the adv class grads had to prepare teachings on the way mag (selected articles)or tape every week. Three fellowships a week, branch meetings and adv clas grad study session, fellowship witnessing nights( not on fellowship night--that would be silly.) Oh, adn nonfun nights.

About time! Oakspear's link shows that other nonChristian faiths are represented. Alink to info on what a pentacle means: http://www.livingstonemusic.net/pentacle.htm

Golly, this thread is not about me, Jeaniam. I don't know why it would be your business why I would want to post on any thread on GSC. ??? This is bizarre. Many people, even non Christians, are interested in the topics of love. As far as I'm concerned, this little derailment of the thread is over. If you want to continue questioning me about my reasons, take it to PM.

In Gen ch 3 God tells them that her husband will rule her. Sounds like she lost any autonomy she had at that point. But I certainly can see men/teachers doctoring their creation story to fit their cultural beliefs and ways.

I wanted to add that Shifra, who started this thread, was very kind and helpful to me & mine during a really ugly time. I wanted to make sure her thread got replies!

I posted because I had something to say. Others don't seem to be offended. The doctrinal forum is not just for Christian doctrine or Biblical Research. I post down there all the time. So do other nonChristians. I will not be intimidated into leaving a thread because some folks don't care for what I post ( you are not the first who is offended to post along side unbeliever). It is a open discussion forum, which means people will discuss, and often have widely different ideas on the same subject. You can always use the IGNORE feature to avoid my posts.

Jeaniam-- you have your opinion about the Bible, I have mine. I am not a Christian and so will not be offering Bible perspectives. This is not a Christian forum so you will run into other perspectives now and then.

I made about 1k on ebay--this was before the Belize group stated cranking stuff out.

Does the Bible denigrate women? I would say yes. I think that the second creation story, Gen ch 2, had that as a basic theme for a reason--so women would be under authority due to gender. I was involved in a writing discussion once that took an interesting turn. If you had ( and could)to send your daughter 'back in time' to save her life, where and when would you send her? OT times in the near east wasn't real popular.

I thought I was pretty clear in my last post about 'About The Way' experiences with what has been labeled 'agape' in the lives of some exway. I was not referring to pond or pond's life, which I know very little about. Chapter and verse didn't get 'us' -the extwi who saw abuse called 'love' -very far in TWI, pond. And I wasn't aware that this discussion required chapter and verse of the participants.

I don't think any one has to argue with God, or accept a doctrine they see as objectionable just because others believe it is the right doctrine. There are plenty of Christians who don't believe in the 'born again' doctrine, after all. The way I see it, making agape, an active love, into something undefined, complicated and super spiritual, opens doors for abuse in certain situations. How many of us were taught that 'mark and avoid' was the loving thing to do. Some were taught that divorce or tossing a family member out on the street was really 'love' of the spiritual variety. Acts of destruction were called love of the highest order. Teaching children that their ex wife or exhusband parent was 'possessed' was love... I think agape ( which I believe can be acheived by all humans, not just certain ones) would be a love that benefits both the giver and the receiver--not a love where one sacrifices all they are to anothers benefit, not a love where one benefits and another is destroyed. Something balanced. Of course I have no 'chapter and verse' for my thoughts, no Greek words--but that doesn't seem to have gotten us very far anyway.

'How many of the biblical stories can be traced back to "pagan" religions and which ones are they? ' I haven't read a scholarly work, but I would like to. I know there are Gilgamesh/ Horus similarities to Bible stories. I've read that Yaweh once had a wife, a goddess, Ashtoreth. Here is a site of links that I explored, but unfortunately my memory eludes me tonight! http://www.mythinglinks.org/NearEast~TigrisEuphrates.html Another link: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/axismundi/2002...h_Making_In.pdf