Bramble

I did take a class in college called Courtship and Marriage. It was at a catholic College, and it did go into sexual satisfaction in marriage. The book was detailed as far as the sex act aspect. I don't recall any part of the class being embarrassing. Natural methods of birth control like the mucous method were taught. We read various books, had discussion groups, wrote papers, did role playing. There were no pictures shown to the entire class of body parts, no slang terms that I recall. As far as I know, no one got aroused during the presentation of class materials. Certainly no one touched anothers private parts during the class! One guy got pretty hot during the rape discussion in our group, but it looked like anger to me...it puzzled me at that time, stil kind of does. He kept drilling the girls on what they would do if a guy didn't listen when they said no. No matter what one said, he kept going back to it. That was kind of creepy to me. Couldn't tell why he was so intense. Now I wonder if he wasn't 'fishing' for a certain response to target someone... It was a very interesting class, with alot of discussion which showed different view points in the class, which consisted of a pretty homogeneous group of mostly Montana raised Catholic kids, mostly from Butte. There was no it's 'okay to enjoy sex' message in it--it was assumed that we knew it was okay to enjoy sex(it was the 70s)--in marriage. I'm pretty sure they were trying to get the 'in marriage' message hammered in. There was no doubt on that qualification. Speaking as a mom--I wouldn't mind if my kids took the college class I took at fourteen. It was informative, respectful. It didn't cover birth control or premarital sex, or stds but I didn't expect it would at that time, though I would expect it now. CF&S--I found it embarassing, and I was not a young virgin at the time. I didn't need the pictures to improve my sex life. What was that about anyway? WHy the visuals? To make us unshockable? To be different and controversial? I'd imagine a 14 yr old girl might be very uncomfortable. I wouldn't want my kids in it.

Thinking of you and all the fires in MT/WY. My sis will probably lose her cabin though it has been emptied out and sprayed with fire retardant. My brother no longer works on the fire crews due to smoke/breathing difficulties--too many fires over too many summers. I had to see my lung doc who increased the way cool steroids for fire season. Here's some MT fire humor floating around It's so dry in Montana that Baptists are starting to baptize by sprinkling, the Lutherans are giving out wet-wipes, the Presbyterians are giving out rain-checks, and the Catholics are praying for the wine to turn back into water!

Hee hee, excie! My list: My kids talking about their lives. My hubby being silly and making us laugh. Alpine meadows My cats Bodies of water Fresh peach cobbler Fluffy snowflakes and a bright snow cloud sky at night. Writing Cousin reunions

Umm, Larry, I just looked through the 4 crucified thread and none of our resident athiests are posting on it( at least not yet). Perhaps you are referring to the non Christians posting on that thread? *Shrug* I've been 'chastised' for posting on Christian threads but here at GSC anyone can post if they have something to say. It is not a Chrisitian forum, other viewpoints can pop in. You can always pm people, or put them on ignore.

I think that if you haved built community, not enmity, and kept your business in order, it will be easier to get into the center of the sweeping river and get to a safe place. Here is a link to more on the Hopi prophecies, it is part of a large NA spirituality/Earth Change site some might find interesting. http://www.spiritual-endeavors.org/basic/hopi-elders.htm

Innies I know would latch on to a new leader like fuzz on a sweater, especially if he was confidant, a good speaker and seemed wholesome. They would LOVE it. It would set thier fears to rest--yes, they are God's One true Ministry, God raised up a new MOG...

Thought you might want to see some non doomsday thoughts that are floating around pagan groups I frequent. Recent message from the Hopi Elders: You have been telling the people that this is the Eleventh Hour, now you must go back and tell the people that this is the Hour. And there are things to be considered... Where are you living? What are you doing? What are your relationships? Are you in right relation? Where is your water? Know your garden. It is time to speak your Truth. Create your community. Be good to each other. And do not look outside yourself for the leader. This could be a good time! There is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid. They will try to hold on to the shore. They will feel they are being torn apart and will suffer greatly. Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, keep our eyes open, and our heads above the water. See who is in there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally. Least of all, ourselves. For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt. The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves! Banish the word struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. We are the ones we've been waiting for. Oraibi, Arizona Hopi Nation.

Bluzeman, I understand your feeling insulted. I have certainly had the same thing happen to me over and over, even here at GSC. I think it is possible for people to change and hold different beliefs and even discuss them with out being insulting--but our doctrinal forum is one of the few places where I have seen people attempt it, and even then there are 'attacks.' Sometimes those 'attacks' though, are just clumsy ways someone expresses themself.

This is an ex twi forum. Not all ex TWIs are Christian. There are a few posters here who are not. I'm not. I did not see Seth's post as an advertisement, but as an attempt to explain who he now is... I do not think the non Christian Ex TWI' feel the need to leave. Paw hasn't banned us and declared this a Christian only forum.

In TWI many of us got used to maneuvering through a mine field. At the end of the day we were just glad we didn't get blown up. It didn't occur to us that we could leave the mine field. We got used to 'taking it' and trying to pull some meagre satisfaction out of life, just glad were weren't in some current horror. Maybe you are now beginning to see that you can find a life outside of the minefields, and that it is possible to find more than meagre satisfaction in between blow ups, that there is a whole wide world of possibilities. You don't have to ignore and put up with the negatives and rewind the meager positives through your mind in an endless loop. You can move forward, find a balance, pick and choose--jobs, friends, living arrangements, thoughts, actions. I would say, think things through and make conscious decisions--you own them.

We left in the late nineties. Life improved immediately--no 3x per week fellowship to attend, with the subtle and not so subtle put downs, jibes, corrections, disapproval attitudes. Plus the actual time factor--no rushing, hectic evenings for an event that was not friendly or healing, but instead a few hours of walking on eggshells. A month out we-gasp!-got rid of the junker car and took out a loan on a van. Wow--no more weekends with hubby patching that car back together. More time! And, since we both had decent jobs by then--the payment wasn't a big noose around our necks, plus we were no longer doing the 15% ABS so Craig could wear Italian Loafers. We moved our large hairy outdoor dog into the house, too. It just seemed more 'decent and in order' than keeping things dog hair free! Plus, being in a big city with break-ins in the area, I slept better knowing the big guy was in the house.

This has turned into a thread with healing thoughts! Ah, insults! They tell more about the insulter than the insultee, in my opinion. In TWI it was common and acceptable to insult those not like you. OOO, what a stand for the Loving God. What away to bring healing to the world.

I put doomsday predictions in the same category as hellfire--an attempt to sway peoples beliefs by scare tactics.

Kathy, you are a gem.

I think 'what is worship?' is a great question. Is it reciting songs of praise? Is it prayer and/or meditation? Is it how you live your life? Is it all of the those things?

Kind of on the topic--I had c sections, and years later I had two hernia surgeries related to the c sections. One was a surgery that involved a very long incision, the other was much smaller. I now have a mesh in my gut which will make any further surgery ever needed in that area much more complicated--wasn't real thrilled about that, but it was that or more hernias down the road, since I seem to make weak scars. My doctor wondered if, as the c section population grows and ages, whether there will be more hernia surgeries. Hernias= not fun.

The Bible being a book of One God, I suppose it does mean what you originally thought, Abigail... Personally, I would fall into the 'soft' polytheist camp, where different deities would reflect something too big for us humans to grasp, in ways that we can see, the Universal truth, the All...has different names...in a way that makes sense to our flesh and blood minds in the midst of all the bustle of life. As I see it ,different deities often have the same goals for their people--inspiration, healing, strength, protection, joy, community, personal growth, help in hard times... A strange god in that sense would be one that does not impact your life, one you have no relationship with.

Perhaps we all didn't have the exact same content in the bathtubs, or perhaps some have different ways of perceiving what was inside... As one who tossed it all, and am no longer Christian, all I can say is I saw other ideas and ways of thinking that made more sense to me, that seemed to fit the values I saw as important. Do I think that everyone who thinks differently than I is wrong and bad? No. But I find like minded to be somewhat artificial, because how can individuals always think exactly the same? Do I think that PFAL taught the greatest truth ever? No, though I did for a long time. In my mind, it lead to much destruction, and I suspect that small subtle things in PFAL/TWI doctrine can grow into ugly things in life.

I know it is not uncommon. When I taught preschool I would have parents who were shocked-shocked! --that their 4 year old couldn't run around the preschool all day with a no spill sipper cup full of juice like he did at home. We had plenty of water to quench thirst, in reach of the children. Constant sugar baths aren't good for anyone's teeth--plus in a day care situation, those hard plastic sippers could be dangerous as kids jostle aroung--teeth can get knocked out.

I see religion as a crutch in both a positive and a negative way. The negative is as Lindyhopper describes-- people not being able to make a decision without their leadership telling them what for. In that way, the crutch is used when the individual should be walking and strengthening themselves--instead they are staying weak. But on the positive side, we humans have used religion and religious practices to connect with the spiritual. Since we are on the earthy/fleshly plane, we need crutches or tools to glimpse the divine.

If it is any comfort at all to those that feel they are ... I suspect there are plenty of lurkers who will read this thread and immediately recognise the lack of empathy and compassion in TWI styled men of God...and it will cause good men and women to pause and reexamine what they think and believe.

The title of this thread:A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them? Bolding mine. Where does it say in the title that this is supposed to be a happy happy joy joy thread? The originator left it open.

It was rude?? It was RUDE? Like hanging up on someone is impolite??? How impolite for the adult mano god to drug and rape a young woman. I am completely disgusted. Ick. Chill down the spine ick. And if I took the vacation of a lifetime, no matter how glorious it was, if it ended in a crash that harmed a loved one, I would never be able to talk about the joys of the marvelous trip. Gag. WHat kind of people are these men? I'm beginning to come to some really ugly conclusions --beyond the TWI VP worshippers.involving young ministry women and these men. How could I not???

Not that it probably matters, but to Wiccans a broom pretty much symbolizes cleansing, sweeping away negatives, purity. Wiccan see the broom as a positive symbol, and some own decorative ones hung near a threshold for a protection charm. I have one I made with a friend, with silk flowers on it. I doubt that the gift was given with any malicious intent--but not Christian, that is true. Few Wiccans are into maliciosness anyway, because they believe they will receive what they put out--so if you put out evil, you get evil. Wicca and many pagan faiths are considered 'earth based' because in one way or another they connect to the divine through nature. Wiccan and pagan faiths are growing, you are likely to run into more as time moves on. They are different from Satanists, who are different than Luciferians, who are different than... http://www.religioustolerance.org/ is a good website for defining different religions you might run into.

I guess I see my Way friendships as being somewhat one dimensional. As long as we were in TWI and like minded, we were friends. As soon as something in doctrinal belief or ministry standing changed, so did the friendships. People moved in and out of life pretty fast--from instant intimacy and trust( sometimes misplaced trust) to copped out grads or possessed cop outs. None of the people I counted as friends, and good friends, stayed life long friends, though I still have contact with a few. I don't see those friendships as 'family' because I don't think good families dump those that think differently. I have come to the conclusion that most of those TWI friendships were 'friends of the road'--people I met through the circumstances of my TWI lifestyle, and our friendship was built artificially, based on TWI activities and goals. The friends that I made after I had kids were deeper, but I think that is because what we were doing was truly imporatnt--raising children. But those friendship ended also when TWI standing changed, so their basis was actually TWI. I still have one friend in TWI, she refused to mark and avoid us, though I'm sure she doesn't advertise that in TWI. Every conversation eventually winds back to us coming back to the ministry. Friendships I've made since then move much slower than the friendships I made in adolescence and TWI young adultyears. They are also much less dramatic. For one thing, I don't see these new friends everyday, or live with them, and each of us has important people(family) and events that do not involve each other. I have reconnected with old highschool and college friends in recent years. That's been fun and positive, though they are not intimate friendships.