Bramble

I think one of the reasons TWI doctrine sticks in us so much was because there was an undercurrent of fear and disaster if you didn't do or uphold the truth you were taught. Remember how the truth was handed to us on a silver platter, that we didn't strive all our lives to figure it out? How priveldged we were--what would be the spiritual ramifications and real life ones too, of walking away? I know TWI spoke publickly against fear as negative believing...but if you walked away or copped out, what would happen to you? How about your innocent children, what would happen to them if you quit standing? Destruction, devil spirits, illness, accidents. What if you didn't listen to revelation? Or to the Man of God, or your spiritual overseer? Disaster. What if you kept certain objects around you, like a cross necklace, or angel statues? Open doors for devil spirits! Disaster! As far as the family feeling, I saw that the most( was in for 20 yrs, from college to my forties) when we were mostly young, single and childless. Everyone did hang out together etc. The boy/girl dating aspect was exciting. Witnessing wasn't a whole lot different than flirting with cute guys at the bar. But as the years rolled by and many married, started families, the sheer pressures of working, raising a family and doing the work of the ministry cut back those casual friendly hang out times. I suspect some of that family feeling/lifestyle was tied to our youth--if we wanted to hang out until midnight, drinking coffee and talking, cool. It is a lot different when you have kids to get to bed etc.

Gosh, I so want to be liked by Bumpy! I think I'll give up every thought in my head and only post what he approves!

I don't really understand why some stick around here, where they apparently find nothing of value, and all of the posters here lacking--and in some huge clique. I don't see them inviting people publicly to their healing sites or ministies etc. I suspect they are frustrated because they are supposed to have all the answers, but don't. Or maybe they have all the answers and we are not listening to them like we should be? How insults and put downs encourage healing, I don't know. I guess we are just supposed to remember our TWI training, and then we will heal? I do understand why some seem so comfortable with insults, put downs etc. In TWI that is how big dogs acted when confronted by those who weren't singing their song. TWI encouraged name calling/labeling, temper toward(spiritual anger) and contempt for those who rejected the doctrine/counsel etc of the MOG/minimog. When I see alot of that I personally consider the person LCM trained.

John Shoyer was very kind to us when we first left TWI. With in couple months of leaving TWI we found a CFF fellowship...and it turned out to be a case of--gee, here's a resource to be used. After the first fellowship we attended, it was "I need you to this, and I need you to that..." People who move into TWI splinters straight from TWi are likely to retain the habits built in TWI. Attendees beware.

I learned about positive thinking through PFAL, and i generally still try yo look on the positive side of a situation. However, I no longer believe that positive thinking, or renewed mind will prevent or erase tradgedies, or cure depression.

Mesmer might have been the start of the modern movement, but shamantic and ecstatic trance practices in religion have been around for a long time, in many cultures, long before Mesmer.

I spent most of my adult life in TWI, from my last year of college, well into my forties. I married in a Way Wedding, went wow, we ran a fellowship. I had my kids in TWI and raised them the TWI way for their early years. The years when we ran a small twig in a small town were good years for us, but the ministry all around us was exploding after POP. We felt strongly about sticking with the ministry and continuing to do the Word. But the more we did the work of the ministry--which we believed to be straight from God--the uglier life got. The things I most treasured, my marriage and children, seemed to be the target of ministry leaders. I am no longer TWI like in belief, however, the habits I built over time, the fear based mentality etc, are much harder to shake than doctrinal views for me, at least. GSC is the only place I know where I can read and consider other's insights into life after TWI, and share mine. Do I always love love love it? No. I get tired of the sniping and the 'I'm superior to you' attitudes that show up. But this is an ex way site--we were the Best of the best etc, better than all the humans on earth because of right doctrine. It would be silly to expect all people from that background to have tolerance for different beliefs. Also, the like minded practice comes to play I think--people realize they have a voice, and don't always temper it. I have other places on the net and in Real Life, where I can go if GSC is making me upset or tired.

What is it about GSC that is so awful that it should be deleted? How will that make the world a better place?

What would be the result? I think all of those who had something to say would have to resay it. Who would be interested? Well, TWI would be happy to see us gone. Some posters who see those who speak 'negatives' about PFAL/VPW as enemies of the one true truth would be happy... I recall that in TWI, if you were hurt by the actions of another, and spoke up about it, you were actually a 'worse believer' than the person who did the actual unloving thing to you. You were supposed to shush up, so the ministry would not be blamed. Shush up, take it, be tough. I've never understood why those who dislike GSC, its posters, stories and dynamics, just don't go build their own forum, and run it the way they want.

Hey, I could head bang to those guys!

And another thing , IMO. The Jesus forty days in the wilderness record...sounds alot like a vision quest/shamanic/ecstatic type vision inducing experience. Food and water deprivation, sleep deprivation, solitude...known to move practitioners into deeper trance states. Mama rocking the fretting baby to sleep, singing a lullaby over and over...could be a much needed light trance state for both.

Thought I would add--familiar ritual ( like a liturgy)that involves music, rhythmic, repetitious beats or movement, repeated sing song chorus/rounds(what Wiccans would call chants), have all been used to induce trance states. People often feel peaceful, relaxed and happy after a trance experience.

Some other religions practice ecstatic trance states, IMO slain in the spirit could be a version of that. What to the participants feel is the benefit, what is their experience? Does it draw them closer to God, do they gain wisdom or insight?

I saw plenty of face melting through the years, from different leaders. Some were 'group reproof' and what good results those brought I don't know. Others were in the church/fellowship meltings for certain believers. Any Fellowship coord could use the face melt isfso inclined--spiritual anger etc, and keeping the household clean. In the ninties, if you were subjected to a melting, then the news was sent up the Way tree, thereby ruining your reputation with upper leadership who might not even know you. Even if you improved whatever the category was that required the face melt, you were always under suspicion. I no longer respect any type of adult tantrum and refuse to be motivated by such. And I have no respect for the 'super spirituality' of the face melter--the fact they need to use such an abusive technique puts them outside the 'wise elder' category, IMO.

Can you believe that your religion is the one right true and only way for all mankind--and still live in harmony or peacefulness with those that don't agree with you, that reject your religion and follow their own? I read a bumper sticker that seems to fit here: When Jesus said "Love you enemies", I'm pretty sure he didn't mean, "Kill them."

SKy4it, to be honest, I kind of view Bible Christianity as a whole as having dangerous contraptions built into it, with authority structures and lacks of checks on the powers of authorities in church settings being one-- which being ex twi, I've seen in ugly action. Where common sense and an understanding for the need to check those powers seems to abide, I do think many churches are fine places to go for spiritual fulfillment, but sometimes some of their beliefs cause all manner of strife. Those books of order, full of rules, practices, structure etc that so many denominations like Presbyterian have, are those churches attempts to keep their churches from becoming destructive, I think.

There are a wide variety of beliefs here at GSC, from TWI /Pfal to athiest and many stops both Christian and non Christian in between. I was involved in a Presbyterian Church for over a year after our TWi exit...I saw nothing cult like or controling/demanding about it. They were involved in many good works in the community. Thinking was encouraged. The pastors /elders etc never once demanded to see my sock drawer or monthly budget. I saw them as a vast improvement over the TWI that I knew.

I guess I thought modern Calvinists were Presbyterians...and many of them apple pick their doctrines to suit their own consciences, like most other denomination people seem free to do. They are not like the Way, be like minded or be gone( or lie about what you really believe and spout the accepted words).

Witchy scrapbooking is out of controlllll ~sez Bramble who has no patience for stickers and fancy hole punchers and acid free paper...

I thought it was 'rebellion as the sin of witchcraft'...and isn't any religion/belief system that doesn't follow the Bible God considered idolatry?

To keep their non profit status, don't they actually have to use the property? I remember something about Emporia, before they sold it. It was empty, but they would have an occasional weekend class etc there do to some nonprofit rule they had to fulfill.

There are many people in many faiths that go through downward spirals in life, depression, drugs etc. I personally went through a pretty grim time after my TWI born again experience was part of my life for many years. I'm in a good place now, and very thankful. *Shrug*--people do not all have the same spiritual/non spiritual experiences in life. What motivates one person to become a Christian, might motivate another to choose a different belief or no belief system. I don't think making your own experience with spiritual matters the model for what all other people will experience works at all.

I do not recall CF&S being or having any sort of discussion format at all. I do recall a branch coordinator discussing his & wife's choices on birth control as some addition to the class materials, but it was not a group discussion or even a Q&A format.. I don't recall any TWI class that had open discussions as an actual part of the class. They were all lecture type classes. How did man bashing get into this? Did I miss something...

Well, that pizza doesn't sound too bad to me. But then I once had sauerkraut & sausage pizza, and I liked it. Seth--a long time ago on a different GSC board there was a long discussion-- the Agnostics at the back table. It was a lively discussion that really got me thinking. Maybe something like that will happen again someday.

We knew nothing about any sex scandals while we were in TWI( left in the late nineties.) When we left we thought something was wrong with our particular area leadership, and that we weren't strong enough to stay the course until the next corps changes. We flipped between thinking something was wrong with us, and something was wrong with TWI for at least a year after leaving. Then we heard about the Craig stories, and other leadership things that had happened. We were doing so much better in areas of life we'd been struggling with while in TWi...we quit thinking there was something wrong with us. I suspect I'd still be in TWI if we had not been targeted and treated like ca ca. But since that did happen, it started me to think--why were we treated like that in the name of God? What was behind it, what led to that ugly way of life?