Bramble

NW Montana has cedars. Here's a pic of a cool place. http://www.libby.org/homepage/RossCreek/ I'm allergic to many, many tree pollens native to the NW and Rockies.

Here is a neat site for those who enjoy mythic/folk/fairy things: Endicott Studio for the Mythic Arts http://www.endicottstudio.typepad.com/

For the life of me I can't see a connection between evolution beliefs and social ills. Many people are not believers in Bible Creationism, not even within the Christian religion. I can't fathom how not believeing the Bible creation story or some form of Bible creation/God creation makes someone prone to evil. That just seems too simplistic an explanation. Most of the people I know well are 'evolutionists,' especially my wild life biologist brother. How that makes them scary people I can't figure.

I wonder though--does a soft answer work with a bully or an abusive person? Or do they interpret it as getting what they want from their aggression? They do exist--not everyone is nice, deep down inside. What about thread/ poster stalkers like we see from time to time?

Some pagan/ Wiccans believe-- and feel they have historical data--that goddess friendly religions with women priestesses were once around. With the rise of patriarchal religions, those were demonized, as were their women priestesses. etc. So some of the 'witches are bad bad' might be related to that change in religion and society. House and land spirits( brownies, little people) were common in preChristian times. Some see a corelation between those and fairies. The goddess Diana...who might be De anu...Danu... (Danube river,Tuatha De Dannan--Celtic mythology) may have some relation to fairies or house/land spirits. http://www.antiromantic.com/poem_midsummer.asp They may reflect preJudaic and preChristian religions, and as such were forbidden. Sorry I don't have a list of links etc, or books etc. No time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy

SKY4it you seem like a nice guy, a conservative Chrsitian with no venom to spread, which is always nice to meet. I am sorry your Christian life has been met with so much rejection, and that would make me pause and wonder what that doctrine did to benefit people and build community. I for one, don't find much value in a doctrine that detroys community or fails to teach others enough about introspection, self honesty and responsibility, and instead focuses on the obvious things like health. Service to God changes with every one you speak to. In some churches you have to show up at church every Sunday, others you need to witness, others, do good works like visit the sick etc. Not being Christian, I have no fear of the Lake of Fire or Hell and Damnation--especially for the sin of not being Chrsitian. I am willing to be responsible for my actions and beliefs--and it the Hell stuff is how is really is, then I have no respect for an all powerful God that would set things up that way. YMMMV Like many in the Pagan /Wiccan belief system, I view prayer to change another person as manipulative--unless you know that the person desires change in a certain area, and that is what you specifically pray for. But to pray for someone to dump their beliefs and join your beliefs(Turn to God/Jesus) is seen as a form of black (manipulative) magic( prayer is often equated to spell casting). And the maker of a manipulative prayer is the one who takes the consequence, just like a witch who casts a manipulative spell will take the consequence. So, if you pray for me, I would respectfully request that you NOT PRAY for me to change my beliefs to yours. In fact, I am currently not working to change anything in my life--I recently made changes that will take time to grow into.

I do think that this is where all faiths meet, eventually, if you follow their thread far enough, past the rules, regs, commands, past all arguable stuff and forward to the oneness.

Sometimes they don't get the right pic the first time, and you get smooshed again. :(

I have met some really wonderful Christians. Roman Catholic, many of them. And the worst ones I ever met thought they were the best, doing what God wanted them to do. That is what makes them so sad--they don't even know they are manipulating people through fear and intimidation--they think they are taking a stand for God, keeping the household clean, running off the devil spirits. I for one, refuse to listen to a religion or a God that fear mongers to gain followers. ( Not saying you are)Since I don't believe in dire consequences for unbelievers it doesn't move me like it did when I was twenty. I've actually seen unbelievers living moral and successful lives. And even Christians can't agree on the afterlife. No religion knows what it will be, they have their faith. I actually know eclectic pagans who really like Jesus...they just can't stomach the rest of the story. Yeah, heard the pouting thing before, too(yawn). Heard it expressed that unbelievers didn't get their ponies, so they stamped their feet at God and ran away. Impying that someday, when they mature enough, they'll come back. Well, I'm 50 now, a parent, good job, married, responsible citizen--I think I'm all grown up. That idea seems related to the general contempt TWI folk held for unbelievers, and some other Chrsitians have that same outlook on other beliefs. No respect for you, unbeliever! Also seems to paint those that made different choices than you with the immature brush. Doesn't make for good dialogue for long. You'd think that if it was the one true way, it would be obvious to the average person exploring different religions. I personally feel religions are equal. How one person connects --what is obvious to them--(or doesn't) spiritually or to the divine or God...might be quite different than what another experiences. Edited to add-- As far as leaving Christianity, like many former Christians, it wasn't an instant thing. No--ooo he hurt me I'm outa here. I was in TWI nearly all my adult life, from college into my forties. It was more like--why did they think that way? Why did they act that way? What motivated that? What do other people think about spiritual matters? Do I agree with that? Does it seems to work in the world as I see it?...and then something came up that was a better fit, that seemed right for me...

Well, I'm not Garth, but the crystals surrounding my keyboard are inspiring me I've met some pretty ugly Christians, cold users. They were bible literalists, too, not mainstream types of Christian. They could quote a verse for every ugly thing they did. Are all Christians like that? What made them that way? --and it just wasn't one, it was like an epidemic. Do you, as a Christian, want to be boxed with those guys? Hey, I heard some of them speak in tongues. I suspect all evolutionists, athiests and agnostics can't be put in boxes either, or like it. If God knows the hearts of men, then He would know the experiences they have had that lead them to their spiritual or non spiritual conclusions. You'd think then he would be more understanding than anyone of where some one was at spiritually and why. How can someone quit being angry with a God they don't believe exists? That is assuming that the atheist/agnostic/whatever, really, deep down inside, believes in your God. What if they really, truly, deep down inside, don't?

I've noticed that, too. And sometimes they seem to gang up on the same few women.

Why, take us back to PFAL doctrine, Larry. The Truth. And if they are just here for discussion, then why the aggressive insulting attitudes? Just poor social skills? And where might they have learned that such social skills are acceptable? Where might they have learned to view others with different doctrines/experiences with contempt? Where might they have learned that victims of wrong doers believed for it to happen to them, so the responsibility is not so much the wrong doers as it is the victims? Perhaps your experience in TWI was somehow protected from such attitudes. I don't know. I and others saw plenty of aggressive, bullying, insulting degrading attitudes in TWI, especially in leadership. So 'scuse us if we think there might, just MIGHT be a connection. Newbies hitting GSC with venom is not a brand new thing!

I suspect that some people have spent so much time surrounded by TWI doctrine and habits that they are not able to see that they are bullying--using fear and intimidation to make others comply. Heck fear is negative believing, so they would never use it on others. Huh. To them, that is the tough love a real man of God, that is taking a stand on the Word, that is protecting the accuracy of the Word. Such tactics were heard in the twigs, on the tapes, in the pulpit of TWI and were acceptable... so it is still acceptable to them. GSC folk are the enemies to the truth, in their view. They are here to shut us up, and rescue us from error.

In the past year or so I have made friends at work, people I eat lunch with etc. A couple have tried to turn conversations to religion, and I have quietly said that I don't discuss spirituality at work. In fact, I don't like to have discussions about spirituality with people I don't know very very well, except on the internet, where I am relatively anonymous. So many times such discussions end up in a invite to a church etc, and due to the friendship it is harder to say no--but saying yes opens up a big can of worms! I also am not interested in trying to persuade others that my beliefs would be right for them.

Time to fess up, Abigail! How many banks do you own? Movie production companies? Diamond mines? Politicians??? Confession is good for the soul.

I think that what a person searches for and finds is more valuable than taking someone elses word for it. Sharing those finds might be called witnessing, or sharing the good news, and I see nothing wrong with that. However, my experience with TWI and what I have seen of other groups that witness tends to be more like "Here, this will fix your problems." Or "Here, this will keep you safe in this ugly world."--after recounting a bunch of disasters and/or even more future predictions of disaster. If it is an attempt to get someone else to change and be like you in belief, using fear tactics or big promises...nope, don't respect that. Too many people are left broken hearted when they or their loved ones don't get the big miracle, or their loved ones choose to not believe, therefore destruction is feared.

googled Jupiter meteor shield: 1st hit: http://www.astrobio.net/news/article2443.html

There are those Christian 101 doctrines that brand everyone not a Christian(or not the right kind of Christian) as inherently evil and inferior...and since the believers of that doctrine do not associate with those people, it is easy to believe that they are inferior etc. To each his own. In my view, that is a fundamentally flawed doctrine that leads to bad things in society. Fairly accurate information on other religions can be found on the internet.

The arrogant 'I know what is best for you' attitude certainly seems to be tied to TWI doctrine. That is because it is considered by its followers to be the greatest truth since the Apostle Paul. I doubt they even realize they are being arrogant!

Having seen many Bible believing Christians( 20 yrs TWI) with out redeemable qualities, and others of different faiths and no faith with redeemable qualities, I don't believe Christianity makes better quality people. I think their view of other religions as inferior actually makes them less admirable and more dangerous to say, families and communities, than those with more respect toward others with different beliefs, because seeing others as inferior leads to treating them as inferiors. Christianity 101 may teach that Christianity is the superior religion and all who participate in other religions do not have as much redeemable qualities(not sure what those are), but obviously I don't believe that, or I would still be a Christian.

Sounds very encouraging, nandon.

Many religions of the Book(Christian and other) do feel their way is the only way, and view those who believe differently as less good(or even as possessed, or evil) or even dangerous. Those unbelievers get far less respect. WHether that is a characteristic of a cult, I don't know. I guess I see cults like the TWI of the nineties, manipulative and micromanaging. I don't agree with it, but I have been involved in 2 Christian groups that did think this way in my life time. As a child I was really glad my family was the 'right' religion! As a young adult in TWI I was really glad I had the truth like few others had it. I'm not a Bible creation believer, and I think there are many non athiests who are not Bible Creationists. Pagan, Wiccans, many liberal Christians, non Chrisitian religions...*shrug* I don't think it is an indicator of evilness.

I don't find athiests particularly offensive and don't understand why some try to argue them out of it. If there is nothing there (in a belief) for them, how is arguing going to make it happen? I do find those that push their beliefs as correct for all other humans offensive, though I know many don't mena to be, and have seen that much more in the Christian Church than anywhere else. I think the idea that 'my beliefs are correct and every human should follow them' is actually a destructive way to think, and leads to enmity when others choose not to think the 'right' way. I think it weakens personal relationships, families, communities... IMO humans are physical beings with connections and glimpses into the spiritual, which we cannot fully understand...some people have different glimpses and inspiration than others. Some see nothing spiritual, some see one thing, some see another. To tell someone that what they perceive is false is foolish, to me--because no one can replicate their own perception in someone else.

Umm, maybe you should do a search on Oakspear's posts, sky4it. He is not an athiest--least not last I heard!

You do know that Oakspear isn't an athiest, don't you?