Bramble

There really are more than two choices of belief. It really doesn't have to be fundamentalist Bible Literalist Christian or athiest. Black and white thinking. That would be an interesting topic of discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Cyclops? You believe athiesim and evolution cause destruction--is that your meaning? I would not agree on that, if it is your meaning. Self serving, self righteous--I guess you had a much more comfortable time in TWI than I did, not to figure out the type of Christians I was refering to-- the destructive kind, the kind who feel it is their godly business run others lives etc. Trust me, those types put on a good show of righteousness while serving themselves. When I hear self righteous or self serving, my mind goes straight to those types.

Why can't Dawkins make money by writing and marketing what he wants to write? Nobody's forcing anyone to shell out the bucks.

I've been reading this discussion but am probably done. From reading some of the latest posts here it looks like the country is full of Bible creation believing Christians(who are moral) and Dawkins following athiests(who aren't moral). Plus, the numbers of amoral athiests are growing and we're all doomed. ??? How does this even approach real life? What about all the evolution accepting Christians/agnostic/others? What about all the self righteous, self serving Christians, like some of us have had personal experiences with? In real life, who has ever been 'evangelized' by a athiest or agnostic? Have you ever been invited to an athiest group? Reading a much publicized book doesn't count IMO. Dawkins is a writer--controversy sells much better than well reasoned moderate views--outrageous will get you on the talk show circuits and sell books! Probably more Christians are buying his books than athiests or agnostics, because he fuels their righteous zeal. ka-ching! Where in your city do the athiests groups meet to discuss their athiest ways? I never see adds in the paper's community calendar. Though there are tons of Chrsitian adds, and maybe one Jewish or pagan add once in a while. Among your co workers, who are you most likely to even Know has strong belief--I work in a huge office, the signs of belief I see are pretty much Chrisitian--bible verse calendars, crosses on cube walls etc. This discussion is getting too simplistic and black and white to seem real--evil athiests vs good Christians--when we all know people don't fit so nicely into such boxes. I don't see our country going from Fundamental Christian( which is not the majority faith) straight to athiesim. Mostly I see people who have beliefs of one sort or another, have no interest in organized religion. And no organized religion means no money pouring in to church headquarters to use to persuade others to be like them. Now there's some doom for ya.

Viagra is prescribed by doctors, not dropped in drinks by your minister.

Why would a single young Christian woman need to be loosened up sexually? Was she supposed to be having lots of sex? Wouldn't that be more of an issue if she was a married woman--and wouldn't the 'loosener' be her husband, not their minister? And how would drugging her w/ out her consent play into this? It's okay to drug a woman if she doesn't want to have sex with you? If the drugs make her want sex with you, then its all moral and good for her? Sounds like young women are objects to be used, not real people. And their feeling are just annoying women's feelings, not of spiritual importance like pleasing the man o gawd is important.

My mama told me to always watch my drinks so no one could drop anything into them. This was echoed to me as a teen by my older brother, who once helped a girl on a bad trip--someone dosed her drink. Good thing it was my brother( who, btw is mentally ill but still has a moral core of not harming others) who saw she needed care, not predation. If there really was a drug that actully made women crazed for sex, menopausal women would be buying it in droves, just like Viagra sales for men. Get real. It would saturate the news media. But I guess it is okay for a Chrisitan minister to commit adultery if the girl is hot for it.???

If young women were 'flocking' to VP then why did he have to drug them??? I was a young girl once and in my college girl mind VP= sex= eeww! A pot bellied old man? There were plenty of cute young guys around back then. And if a sweet young thing did pursue a Christian minister old enough to be her grandfather--wasn't Biblical counseling more the responsible choice on gramps part, not adultery? Couldn't he have said--"Hey Dotsie, stick around while I talk with this girl. I think she has sex issues." or something?

Many Christian doctrines seem to have no real choice other than another Chrisitan doctrine. To leave the one true truth/God/church usually involves dire consequences like hell or destruction. Evil lies right outside the door, so to speak. Whether other world religions have that aspect I am not educated enough to say.

Well, seeing that I'm polytheistic and know others who are ...not every god demands obedience, and not every god is jealous if a person should get to know another god. Which is probably why the Bible god seems unfriendly to pagans/Wiccans etc. As to why some people are absolutely certain their god is the only god, or the right god, or are certain there are no gods at all and anyone who believes in such is deluded...I think people are different. What some might perceive about diety is not what another might perceive. Why that is so hard to figure out I don't know. People are different have different experiences adn influences. I think we are physical beings with glimpses into the spiritual, perceptions and experiences vary, what's wrong with that?

A large change in my life post TWI that seems to fit with this thread( in a way) is how I deal with what I see as problems with the world we live in. For so long, my emphasis was on changing people by getting them to agree with what I thought and to act like I act(TWI doctrine etc). That proved to be futile in the long run. Once you decide you can and should change people you figure out that others think they can and should change you. Now I put my energies toward circumstances I can change, not people... I can donate time and food to the food bank, for instance, or help out an elderly co worker wth yard work, or stay home and take care of my own family and home. Many things seem too small to matter, I guess, but they are conscieous on my part and I know of others who are quietly making similar decisions. The stone in the pond affect, perhaps... But then I now see practical matters as being part of the spiritual, not some separate activity that must be done so I can work the Word or whatever. Hey Belle, could I be included in the EFT discussion? I've been reading it but not practising it.

Have you thought about doing an online blog, like Blogger or wordpress? You can set them at different privacy levels, screen comments or no comments etc.

Interesting, Sir G. I will have to think about it to see how things fit into your perspectives. But I don't really think the world has gone mad...I think it always has been a mass of chaos with outposts of order and peace here and there. For some, this is the best the world has ever been...others, not so much.

I'm glad I don't feel the need to frame it and stick in my living room for all the world to see.

I think love during a courtship is different than long time married love. Not better or worse, just different. Courtship is full of excitement and hope for the future and joy to know your feelings are shared. I do think long married couples can approach that type of feeling while on a special date or vacation, when they are not being interrupted by kids and bills and this or that minor life crisises. But we all live right in the middle of real life, with ups and downs, health problems, financial situations, children issues, getting to work on time, laundry, dinner dishes... I think marrying someone with good character, kindness...that is the important part, (though it wasn't all that important back in the way daze when it was important to marry a 'leader' etc). That will get you through the hard times. One of the main reasons I married my husband was because he reminded me of my dad in the character department. He was hardworking, kind, generous. He didn't need someone to take care of him, he could take care of himself just fine.

Wholesome country nostalia... I just did a long search on women's western wear.(D@^^n internet!) There are some cute (and $$$) western inspired things out there.

I enjoy the internet. I work on an intranet at work, adn also have a personal business that depends heavily on the internet. I shop adn bank, keep up w/the health insurance, the 401k etc all on the net. I also have frequent communications from folks I once heard from about once a year--cousins, aunts, college roomates. Plus I can keep in touch with one of my siblings who travels a great deal. My kids have the games and internet access, they also do much homework on a computer, and they were doing powerpoint presentations in 6th grade etc. Being comfortable with a computer is essential nowdays. I wouldn't take it away from my kids, (except as leverage ). They do alot of socializing it is true, but so did I when I was a teen--tying up the phone for hours. Time management is always an issue. Sometimes the internet activity is cut way back. Personally, my biggest time waster is running errands and making phone calls, which can take up all of my work breaks and lunch, plus running places in the evening. If I can do it by email or internet, yes! Why would any of your activities have to take you away from your god?

Those choir outfits are unbelievably ugly and look equally bad on everyone. The last time I went to church the grandmas were dressed much more attractively than that! You know it is a cult when so many people are forced to dress ridiculously, and they aren't in a comedy skit.

Panentheism is a concept often found in the pagan/Wiccan beliefs.

The last five points you made are very much what I started to see around the web and in life some years ago when I started searching other beliefs. Anyone can say anything they like, but some of us have found this statement: Quote from the article: 'Only so can the dehumanizing and distorting power of paganism be broken, and replaced with the healing and restoring love of the creator and redeemer god.' to be not at all what we found out in the real world, so much so that to me it sounds ridiculous and uninformed( and insulting).

Hey, I know harmony for the laundry song! But seriously, folks, you have it all wrong. LCM said Cleanliness IS Godliness. It is, like, one of the most important things ever. Think of all the devil spirits you can simply clorox away!

I think any forgiveness I can give goes hand in hand with relationship. Since the relationship with those who treated us the worse in TWI has been severed and I have no desire or need to maintain any type of relationship with them, then no, I feel no need to forgive them. They were willing to use me like a tool, then toss me away like trash. They chose to treat me like yuck, and I was willing to let them for a time. I'm no longer willing. There has to be respect in a relationship that I will willingly engage in, real respect, not phony 'household' respect. They didn't respect me back then when I was willing to have a relationship and willing to forgive...who needs that? Those relationships are over. They were ugly and unhealthy, even if they were coated in Bible verses. If they were dying on the side of the road, yes I would help them--but that would not be not forgiveness, that would be kindness.There would be no relationship just because they were harmed and I was in a position to help. Others, friends, family etc who mess up--that is a whole different situation. Those people care about me and I about them. Issues can be talked about and forgiveness is a natural as part of healing that rift.

QUOTE Sky4it: 'bible beilieving spirit filled people are harmless' ??? Were you in TWI? Do you really believe that those who are not 'bible beilieving spirit filled people' are full of harm? How scary! The whole world is full of them, they are everywhere. You seem to be quite comfortable with broad labels for people. I personally think that in any group, be it athiests or evolutionisats or bible beilieving spirit filled people , some will be wonderful, some will be criminal, some will be kind, some will be jerks, some will be lazy, etc...you'll find humans with a variety of human personalities where ever you go.

Is it? I doubt that actual pagans would define it that way. Their gods, not being your god, might have an entirely different view of what a relationship is all about, what service or deeds should be done. Many pagans view the relationship like kinship, not authoritarian in nature, nor is it evangelical, so you, an outsider, might not have much knowledge about what transpires between someone and their god. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ has some actual info. One characteristic of many pagans--they respect other religions, even those who classify their own beliefs as evil. If you were to, say, call Christianity a weak parody on pagan sites I visit, people would take you to task for denigrating another's beliefs. But I understand that that is a doctrinal okey dokey in some Christian circles. Their interpretation of the Bible involve separation and enmity with those unlike them.

I took it in '86. There was an exam over PFAL and the col laterals. I think the Int. class was included. It was a long exam and dreaded by some. I don't remember Angels of Light, but I did have The Challenging Counterfeit, which I think I bought at the ADV class bookstore. I don't know if LCM's Advanced classes required a test, but by then there were almost no new people anyway--all old grads taking those.