Bramble

The leadership set up of TWI made a happy home for predators, I think. Once in a leadership position, they could manipulate and shut up people or discredit them. Lockbox and 'so the ministry not be blamed' were tailored for predators. No checks and balances. My biggest concern with ex way groups isn't really the doctrine-- I don't really care if poeple want to believe in no trinity or the dead are dead or believing equals receivng. I worry about the set up of their community--the ex way corps are their leaders--and have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?

The dress like a little girl thing--gag! If I wore a rufflly dress and Mary Janes with anklets my husband would rush me to the ER.

WD-- I wasn't clear, my bad. I wasn't thinking about mike when I posted that(I can't read his posts, drive me too nuts)-- I was thinking about the handful of posters who mentioned Rascal, whose posts seem to get them all crazed.

Hmmm, maybe some of the pFAlers need to do some forgiving of certain GSC posters. I detect some bitterness and anger...

You were a bright spot on a dark time, Shifra. I worry less about my kids now than I did when they were younger. I see the type of friends they make, how they choose activities etc and am not so concerned. They are not so conditioned to obey obey, or perhaps it is that they evaluate what authority an individual has over their lives. I think mostly I was afraid that they would be too easily lead by others, peers OR religious types, that they would be dependant...which seemed to be the goal of TWI child rearing. That someone witha strong personality would glom onto them and run them.

There is no one definitive Christian doctrine. Aren't there about 100,000 different Christian doctrines? Or more? Everybody chooses. Why would someone choose to believe a doctrine they are uncomfortable with --because others tell them they must? Usually there is some type of negative cosequence for choosing wrong. Some just choose differently than you did. Which human is smart enough to figure out which Christian doctrine is best for all Christians? Which one is really THE truth? Does your God have consequences for the believers that pick the wrong one??

We're exway here. We all remember how shocking anything that wasn't like minded with TWI doctrine was, especially if it came out of a believer's mouth. Conflict of any sort is BAD, conformity to the one true doctrine is GOOD and to be expected. Anything not pleasing, positive and a witness to the greatness of the one true word/ministry was like an insult to God, open door to devil spirits etc. Negative people were possessed. We should be surprised that there are those in the exway community still hold to that type of thinking? That they should see Greasepotters who no longer believe TWI doctrine as given by the great mog VPW in a negative light, as spiritually dangerous, slurring the greatest truth since the first century truth with lies and negatives? I guess I haven't been out as long as some of you. It is still very clear in my memory.

My kids were in gradeschool when we left, but for a couple years before leaving, even though we never spoke about it, hubby and I took them to fellowship as little as possible--week nights were easy because by the time we would return home it would be past their bedtimes. We also just quit using the spoon--no heart for it I guess. I think our instincts about caring for our children just kicked in at that time. My oldest was an ultraperfectionist, to the point where if she got something wrong on a paper she would get a stomach ache. That smoothed out to some degree, but each one of my kids went through a rebellious testing type phaze in middle school where they got awful grades and a couple of detentions for a quarter--big deals for kids who got straight As and never pulled cards in gradeschool. I guess that was to see what we would do. . We made them cut back on afterschool activities and made a big deal about any improvement, which seemed to be enough to reassure them we weren't going to turn into maniacs about grades. Soon enough they were all back on the honor rolls etc. Now all are engaged in school and school related activities like debate and band, which they enjoy. It is fun to see them trying out activities, finding their strengths aand what they enjoy. I do have concerns about one child who seems to be easily lead by their peers more than our other two but kiddo seems to be picking up on those that are manipulative and hard to please...just hope it translates to the opposite sex. Our kids know we were involved in a cult, that church leaders felt free to tell us how to live and that we choose to make our own decision in such matters. Since we are not church goers, my kids get invited to church youth groups all the time...there are a few, the high demand groups, that I've said no to, and explained why, because I don't want them to be pressured to join a church that will put church over family.

Because they won't hush up for you, WTH? Now the sheep are inflicting harm on the pooor wolvies by posting on GSC? Interesting.

*Lockbox mentality(lest the one true ministry be blamed) *No greivance procedures *Special truths for those spiritual enough to handle it *Heirachy of importance *Never speak a negative TWI was a predator's playground. All they had to do was pay attention during the classes, learn the 'speak' be bold(a leader!), and look what they could get? They could fit right in, sound just right, make merchandise of God's people I think it is called in the Bible. That is why they are called WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHING. It is one thing to be positive and want to think well of others. Irt is another thing to acceot a lifestyle that allows predators into your safe haven. And some still want people to hush about about it to prove that God healed them--seems to be enabling the predators, so gosh, those fellas can sleep soundly at night, it is all forgotten...

Didn't Jesus weep? Get angry? Experience dark emotions? Did he shut up and/or only speak happy thoughts? Seems to me that is a handy doctrine for abusers to preach. That way they don't have to be bothered by the pain they cause. See, I wasn't so bad in how I treated Mary Sue, Mary Sue is sooo blessed, I helped her grow spiritually. How many people in TWI lived isolated, pain filled lives because they were ashamed they hadn't received 'deliverance'-- and were unable to honestly speak about it and brand themselves as a poor believer. Yes, let's all put on our believer face and perform!

Kudos to you for putting in the real work!

Those still swilling in TWI think identify with the bullies, not the victims. They see the bullies as being unfairly tried in the GSC threads. The victims--it was far worse, spiritually, in TWI doctrine to be a victim than to be a bully. A bully was strong--sinful, yes, but strong. A victim was also sinful, And WEAK. The weak were to be despised--their weakness could affect you, bring you down, the weakest link and all that. Funny, I'm not a Christian, but even III can see that attitude has no basis in love.

What kind of financial help will they provide one of their students who gets injured while working on the Sower's Farm? Farm work and equipment can be dangerous. Even chopping veggies in the kitchen--a slip of the knife--can cause injury that requires a doctor's care. Your negative believing caused it, go home?

Looks like marketing to me--the principles of the program developed by the Mog, and a front man with the same name, his grandchild. This could be the new MOG they are looking for.

Things got better for us from day one of leaving. We really weren't bad at making good decisions for our family--it is that so many decisions we made were challenged by leadership. I don't think leadership thought those challenges through, they did their decision making on the fly it seems to me. And believers in different fellowships had different issues--it totally depended on the whims and peferences of the leaders. I do remember the confrontation about that missed advanced class--LCM said if you didn't go, you were either either hard hearted or slothful--no other reasons. So the confrontation was to figure out which you were. It was decided we were slothful--but I was always had the impression that the actual slothfulness was in getting pregnant...

We would have been in the #3 weakness category--but the weakness changed all the time. We were never, ever good enough, in other words. One time it was me refusing to go to the new adv class( I was nursing twins, and already had the old adv class). We were barely household then. We had a ratty looking old car that ran very well--not good enough though. We had three kids is less than 3 years, how insane was that? How distracting from the Word. We arranged too much of our lives around our kids--belonged to the parent council at school which met on -gasp-a fellowship night once a month. I worked part time nights--ooo bad believing for finances, there. But we didn't have to pay child care for 3 preschoolers. And guess what--I made just about the same amount of $$ we abs-ed so Craig could wear designer suits! We had a dog and a cat and a bird and a fish. Those are just a few minor things we were made miserable about. I won't go into the uglier intrusive stuff we were supposed to submit to to be godly. Or the attempts to drive a wedge between hubby and I, the more painful stuff. Our HFC tried for years to get us in his control or out, but of the three limb coords we had in the nineties--the first two were old buds, so we had that who-you-know-hedge of protection. Then we got a limb coord who didn't know us, and who knew our HFC's corps brothers...he backed HFC all the way. We'd been Twig Coords, we were well liked, so we weren't M&A right away--we were 'needing to take some time to work through some things', is what the branch was told. It was a big shock to people in the branch when we left abruptly w/ out LOA or anything. I found out we were M&A several months later when I ran into one of my former best friends in a store, she started crying and said good bye. When we didn't come running straight back to the Household we were m&A.(We have a TWI mole who still speaks to us) We weren't great heros taking a stand for God and the Word against the evil ministry when we left. No great triumphant act. We were weary, scared, heartbroken, stressed, confused, wondering if our marriage would survive. We didn't think we would make it through another reproof and report to the HFC type period. I had a place lined up in my home state, and a job if I needed to get away with the kids, if hubby caved into the HFC and pretty much our marriage would be over. The HFC got a little too confident I think, became too obvious. We didn't leave with friends or support or understanding and encouraging family members-- TWI was not a topic of conversation with our families( hubby's family looked into depreogramming back in the seventies, they hated TWI). We left because if we stayed we thought something really bad would happen to us, like a divorce, orchestrated like others we'd seen in our area.

My understanding is that xways have to go through the Limb coordinator before attending a fellowship--and 'twig' is an old wineskin and not used, it is 'Household fellowship.' Announcements are 20 min, the teaching is precisely 10 minutes long. I doubt you'd be invited for a look see--there would probably be an intention on your part to 'do the Word' before your dangerous presence would be allowed in the purified household. You'be watch like a hawk. Be prepared to allow access to you finances and sock drawers. You'be alot better off going to a splinter group if ya gotta.

I wonder if we'd be urged to forgive if we were outraged by the sins and failings that happenmed with a mainstream trinitarian minister, now dead. Or if it is really that some still do believe that VPW taught the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, and we and GSC are Satan worker bees.

Well, if you could make those aliens understand that the credit card payment is the 15th of every month, and that dates are important to human--you'd have a good thing going. Unfortunately, you can't expect aliens to care about human payment dates. They are busy with alien stuff.

I was one who was in during the nineties. Coming here did help alot. So many things were redefined for us, things were called love that were actually control and using us, not love at all. We were told we were being helped so we could be strong--but in reality we were just getting weaker and more dependent. It was confusing. Plus confidence became so shaken because we were always wrong/off the Word etc about so many things. It was and is good to come here and be able to say--that wasn't love, that was cruel, that was control, we were being used, bullied etc. It takes time to unravel all the stuff, even to recgonise why you feel/act /think a certain way. I think the same threads could be a warning or recovery, depending on where the reader is in life.

You'd like my brother's aliens. They give him money--which is why he can't have a credit card!

We were raised Catholic. I was the only one to get involved in TWI One of my brother's still calls himself Catholic, but it is more in the vein of we're German, a family thing. He's an ultraliberal tree hugging environmentalist, works in the film industry and preaches recycling. My mentally ill brother believes in aliens, but not in a religious way. He doesn't like crowds of people so no churches for him. My sister is agnostic and hasn't been inside a chuch except for weddings or funerals since jr high. No interest, no time. I was in TWI for 20 yrs, now have Wiccan tendencies. Edited to add: My siblings are more comfortable with Wicca than with fundamentalist Christianity.

Since the 'forgive Twi/VPW' seems to equal 'don't say anything negative about TWI/VPW' I see the forgive TWIers pretty cynically, in the same realm as 'Hush it up so the ministry won't be blamed'. To be a victim means you weren't believing...In TWI it was worse to be hurt by someone than to be the one doing the hurting. Bullies were encouraged in TWI--they called it 'leadership'. Wanted to add--since the forgive TWI/VPW folk seem to stalk one particular woman poster here, they've lost credibility with me.

TWI Doctrine and sin ,VPW and GSC: All sin is broken fellowship. There are no Big or little sins. So sexually abusing young women in your ministry is no different than being bitter and angry--all are sin, all are broken fellowship. The difference--VPW didn't condemn himself and got back in fellowship, so all is good. But GSC posters are bitter and angry all the time, so they have broken fellowship all the time.