Bramble

If a member of a denomination/church/doctrinal belief declares that Your belief will send you to hell(either most certainly or probably) does it motivate you to change and join them in their beliefs? Do you take them seriously? I don't believe in Hell in the afterlife, so such declarations just irritate me. I also think that the fear of hell lost alot of power when the church no longer had the military might to go after the heretics. Fear motivation seems unloving to me, especially when those condemned to hell are not leaving evil lives(aren't murderers, child rapists etc), just hold different doctrinal beliefs or belong to different religions. I tend to lose respect for those who hold to Eternal damnation for You type believers because it seems to be an obvious manipulation similar in a way to TWI's WHat about your children, you'll be outside the hedge of protection if you leave TWI. I don't in fact see anything positive about the condemned to hell belief, except that it could make the one who hodls the 'correct' belief feel good.

So true. Flash and dash can take you a long way.

My children were young when we left and got out pretty unscathed, except for the messed up parents they were stuck with! But i personally know a couple familes who had terrible things happen to their highschool age children by TWi bullies/leadership etc. Those families I'm sure have very deep regrets for the long term issues those children still deal with. Abuse and rape take huge tolls, especially of children.

I think people who stay in for a long time( i stayed in for 20 years) do make changes to allow certain behaviors to exist. I think it is called cognitive dissonance. As a young woman I despised temper tantrums in adults of college age and lost respect for those who threw them, which kept or got me out of some relationships, which was not a bad thing. Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting. This came to be some kind of indication of the heavy spiritual happenings, world shaking importance of the ministry and our 'stand'. Attitude was -- "Whoa, this situation is sooo spiritually dark and dangerous", NOT "Whoa, what a manipulative idiot."

Sounds like peer pressure and 'that the ministry be not blamed' is alive and well. Has there been any change in leadership structure--or is it still a pyramid of obedience? Think of the future--all those Waykids raised to obey without thought or question... and then one day a new meglomaniac arrives on the scene and claws their way to the top, full of boldness and aggression, which looks like leadership to TWI eyes...A NEW MOG!

Peacefull... I can't say my life is peaceful with three teens, young love, driver's ed, the JOB, hubby's health and the general state of hectic run run we seem to live in-- BUT-- If we were to add a manipulative fellowship leader trying to run our life, three mandatory meetings a week, study and teaching schedules, weekend 'bless' jobs(leadership's house or yard) 'direction' on teen activities and friendships from leadership, being under suspision for chronic illness= chronic spiritual weakness,15% income going to TWI, yadayada-- THEN, in comparison to that lifestyle, then yes, life is peaceful, adn I'm satisfied(or working on it).

I married one of the WOWs who got me in the class, we have kids so that would not have happened outside the Way. I don't have much regret for the 80's, mostly I knew enthusiastic young people. Hubby and I did make decisions about career and education that may have been much different if we hadn't spent so much time 'Moving the Word'. Working, raising a family and doing ministry time didn't leave time for continuing education. In the nineties we didn't feel free to go where the jobs were. We bought a starter home and then sold it as per TWI leadrshi+, which was financially stupid and did not prosper us--we paid more in rent than we had on our mortagage. After leaving TWI we bought another 'starter' home, which we still live in, which turned out to be a good move since housing in our area sky rocketed. Trying to raise a family and jump through all the hoops in the nineties was just ugly. We had no time or energy to think about much beyond surviving(pleasing leadership). After we finally left we started to think about what we really wanted. We moved from the large city we were in( again at the counsel of leadershi+) and returned to a small town in the Rockies where we both felt more at home. It has great schools, too. I'm getting back in college to get my middle school teacher certification and hoping to pickup a job in the school district in the next year or so. We don't have much saved for retirement and hubby has a chronic illness and may not be able to work full time for many more years, so this will work better for us. If we had left TWI early on I think we'd be in better shape financially because we wouldn't have had all our focus on the next class, next advance, save for the Rock lifestyle we lived for 20 years. We wouldn't have sold our little house in a rush of 'get out of debt.' I doubt we would have ever lived in a big city since neither of us like them! We are in better shape having left TWI, especially where the kids are concerned. I'm so thankful we got out when they were young! We have had no ministry conflicts over school activities etc, which we had even when they were in grade school in TWi.

Avast! is great. I have it on the family pc and have far less problems than in the past. With three teens surfing we pick up plenty of junk. I also made Firefox our main browser which seems to help, too. Our other two computers are Macs--never have problems with them!

Mark and Avoid-- The way I saw it practiced in the nineties was if someone was specifically marked and avoided(like we were) then they were bad news, stay away or risk getting spiritually contaminated. Most Way innies we knew in the day stil M&A us. People that left in the late eighties weren't necessarily marked and avoided, they were just cop outs, Way folk could visist with them. Remember, too, way innies believe that mainstream churches with their Trinity and dead up in heaven are devil spirit inspired, so they may not think you have any wisdom.

I don't see what BFDave sees. I don't hear Valley speak when I talk to younger people or from my children or their teen friends. I don't see dress alike people every where though here I do see people in jeans all the time (in the Rockies), but that has always been the case here. At work I do see lots of flip flops in the summer but I see nothing wrong with that. Ours is a casual dress work environment. Denominational churches are bleeding away their congregations. Have you been in a Mainstream church? Look around--Hardly anyone under sixty! Being a good Catholic is hard work. I suspect most of my generation left (or is just a member in name) the RC church, more likely over the birth control issue than Biblical accuracy. When I look around at work or my friends I see lots of variety--in lifestyle, religion, interests, politics, hobbies. I don't see homogenization on a huge scale.

Heehee. I do know a witchy gal( I live in a small town, so not many to know) who is mental and someone to not let too far into your life if you don't want drama--but I think her condition would be there whatever her religion!

Perhaps the nature of a god's death, not being human, involves a rebirth or resurrection. Some humans believe human death is a step on the path to rebirth or resurrection back into human form. *Shrug* I know some witches and Wiccans that have relationships with their dieties (goddess). I don't know any personally who are into causing harm and evil to others or being scary. Most of them believe that causing harm is wrong and will return to them three fold, since the one weilding the power is the one responsible. Believe it or not, Wiccans have stories of deliverance, personal journeys that lead them to peace, too.

Yesterday I had some dark splotches and bright flashes in one eye, then significant bluring. Ended up in the ER who sent me on to an opthamologist who does their emergency checks-- and I had lazer surgery to keep tears in the retina from growing, which could really harm my vision. I had no pain and almost blew off the ER, because who wants to go to the Er on a busy Saturday afternoon. But now I'm glad I did. So don't blow off sudden vision changes!

My hands will be stuck safely to my minivan's steering wheel! Any 'Come together' will be a meeting of the minds! Perhaps a sharing of chocolate? Lattes? Pics of kids? No German Shepard weirdness! Though a nice pet German Shepard would be ok. My van is dog friendly.

I'll give ya a ride if you want. Just don't hitch with a stranger. My name tag will say b-r-a-m-b-l-e.

I'd better drive myself and meet you there. I get car sick in the back of busses--so not fun.

The current big brawl is between the Trinitarian and non Trinitarian Christians. To eliminate that type of brawl you would need two Christian forums. Perhaps the initial poster should just say who they want to post--Trinitarian Christian discussion ONLY. Or you could put the known unbelievers, or Trinitarians or non Trinitarians, according to your theology, on ignore. Or you could do by invite only pm discussion.

Giving your son for other people...that just isn't something that admirable, IMO. Speaking as an unbeliever in the Creation story/Fall of Man/need for a Savior. What culture in the entire world would revere a parent that gave up their child instead them self? That theology right there is a good plug for the trinity--because it only seems loving when you view Jesus as god, when the sacrifice was all his to make. But I agree with you on man's attempt to define God(or diety, in my theology). I don't think we are spiritually mature enough to have a real understanding. We just have glimpses.

I think most people on this site use the word cult in the sense of a group that is destructive to its own members, which many of us experienced. To use the word cult in the sense of--you don't believe my truth, so you are in a cult ( or in a false religion, wrong god etc) is a power play, coercion by fear method to try to sway someone to a different theology. That it is used by Christians against other Christians is a sad fact, and in my opinion, the great flaw of Christianity--My way or the Highway is all too ingrained, leading to so much division --not differences that are tolerated-- but actual division. One would think that an all knowing all loving diety could have made things a little more clear. Or maybe he just thinks other things than theology are what is important, and thinks it IS obvious.

There have been some great points in this thread. Polar Bear--higher powers, funny we we didn't see that while in TWI and that tyrannical pyramid leadership structure seemed so great--because we believed in some type of 'magic man' who had all the answers straight from Heaven. Mstar--your description of how leadership in regular churches is structured is what I saw after we left. Bullies and tyrants have a much harder time getting a foot hold. Heck, the average 60 year old church member in a denomination wouldn't put up with the crap we lived with daily even for a minute--they retain their independence. I was in my forties and out of TWI before I saw how regular churches worked. No wonder we were so taught to despise denominational Christianity--we might learn something about leadership structure and start expecting reasonable change. I also was shocked to know that members could have significent differences from their denomination and no one bothered them about it. There was an elderly man that would not attend on a Sunday when the woman pastor preached, because he didn't believe in women preaching. Yet he was still an elder, people understood his position and let it go. I too wonder if TWI or the splinter groups have moved away from the pyamid magic mog structure. I hear from an innie about once a year, and they have never mentioned any real changes in TWI, even though they have encouraged us to return because it is so 'sweet' now.

Looks to me like someone really wants to get into a fight and make it all about them. *Yawn*

Hmmm. My family does have a history of mental illness and depression. One sibling is bipolar and schizophrenic, my father had bouts of depression and his mother was bipolar. My other siblings and I have been on anti depresants at one time or another. About a year before I got involved in TWI I was in counseling for depression, but no meds at that time. I quit counselling voluntarily. The renewed mind teaching was very exciting to me, and for a while( a year?) it seemed to work, my mood did elevate. Perhaps because I embraced renewed mind/never hold a negative thought is a reason why I stayed in so long. But by the time we left TWI 20 yrs later I knew I was in trouble. I even told my husband that if we stayed in TWI I would have to get depression medication( I'd been using St John's Wort which didn't work much for me.) Even St John's Wort would have got us kicked out of TWI, cuz mental problems equaled pozzezzed. Symptoms worsened alot after a serious illness and months of oral steroids. I am on medication now and probably will remain since I lose REM sleep and short term memory without it. I can't live a normal life without short term memory.

Looks to me like someone is seeking attention. Negative attention is better than being ignored, i hear.

Perhaps a loving God does not put that much store in whether someone was able to ferret out the RIGHT TRUTH from all the millions of doctrines and religions out there. Perhaps how one lives matters, not the jots and tittles of belief.

I don't think the controlling leaders i knew gave a dam about lost lambs. i think they were hoping to look good to their uppers and get kudos for their 'stand.' It was all about them.