Bramble

Rainbow girl, most pagans are polytheistic and believe in many gods. Some believe the god of the Bible does exist, though not exactly as portrayed by the Bible, because they are not sola scriptura believers. Some believe the god of the Bible exists but is not their god, they have a relationship with another. Some develop a relationship with a certain god/dess or a pantheon of gods. Paganism is not in general a revealed religion, with writings and holy scripture. Is is often described as experiential, and as you know, if you have had an experience of some sort with your diety, then that is real to you. Intolerance--how someone believes and what they believe is their business. But if your spiritual view of me, as a member of a different and 'wrong' religion, worthy of eternal damnation( and yes, I am posting about hellfire and brimstone beleifs, which are the most extreme) then how far can I trust you as a neighbor or friend? Wouldn't the goal be to change me? Save me? Somewhere inside, wouldn't they think that those type of beliefs are evil?--they are worthy of eternal damnation, after all. And if the beliefs are evil, what of the people who hold them? Yes I've heard the term hate the sin, love the sinner--but I have never seen it applied where the goal was not for the sinner to be 'loved' into changing. And it applies to different religions as much as social ills like alchoholism or prostitution, as far as I have seen. Does viewing people as 'other', eternally damned, build a healthy society? Or is the only healthy society one in which all people believe as you do? I personally think a society is healthier if a diversity of beliefs is accepted and those with minority beliefs can be at peace in their communities. Others would not agree with me ... As far as I can tell there have been three or four nonChristians posting on this thread--myself, Oakspear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably. Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not.

We already ARE IN a pluralistic world! Look at your own community. I'll bet there is plenty of different faiths. My small area has over one hundred different Christian churches. It has Moslems, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans and Jews, Bahai--and most of those weren't here fifty years ago--back then it was mainline denominations on the street corners. What is of value? Freedom of choice for one. Safety from religious persecution. Equal treatment under the laws of the land. To be able to live peacably in one's own community, to celebrate your own faith and holy days. To raise your children without a dominant religion interfereing. To not have to hide your faith for fear of community or emploment ramifications. The question isn't so much "Do we like pluralism?"--the question is more "How do you handle pluralism?"--because it is here.

We cook on the weekend and reheat alot during the work week to save time. I hate to run to the store during the week so try to think through the grocery list so I'm not left with a trip for one item or whatever, which stresses me out!

The drama is much easier if they have at least one friend who knows how to be a friend. A good friend is a relief to everyone! Make your home the hang out/ sleep over place--you'll know alot more about what is happening. It never hurts to point out when a girl or boyfriend is being manipultive etc. They might not act like they think you have a clue, but they will mull stuff over. I voice my opinion all the time without demanding they take this or that action--let them brainstorm. I find challenging classes, plenty of homework and school related activities like marching band etc keep the teen drama down. Busy Busy.

What if "God" is fractaled on our human plane into myriad pictures of what love, diety, spirit, are?

I do think Chrisitanity is getting more flack today than in the past, simply because they are now sharing the religious fabric with many others. They have not had to 'share' so to speak in the past and many are now floundering--as their cities and neighborhoods become more and more diverse. Common rhetoric from the past may now be crticized by any number of other faiths. Plus, with the internet--what happens in small town USA can be known everywhere in a short time. Same ol' same ol' attitudes are now scrutinized by thousands. Hubby and I once lived in small town midwest. It was a common in the area to have whole towns based around the dominant church--you had your Roman Catholic towns, your Protestant towns. The local public school even transported the kids to a local church one afternoon a week for religious classes. Kids from these small towns might not meet many others not of their faith until college. Big shock there.

Geisha, just out of curiosity, when you speak of the orthodox church, are you referring to Roman Catholic and the Eastern orthodox churches, too? Or are you referring to Protestant Christianity only? And didn't the Protestant churches start as an aberration of the orthodox church of its time? So change can't always be bad.

One more article on how Christians view other religions: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_othe1.htm As you can see, there is no one Christian viewpoint on these issues. And an interesting website on the changing religious landscape in the US: http://www.pluralism.org/

Link to an interesting essay on the definition( they have over 40 definitions) of Who Is A Christian? Another article on One True Religion?: Both seemed relevant to the topic (at least to me, ymmv). http://www.religioustolerance.org/

There are over 30,000 different Christian doctrines. Some are more tolerant than others. In my area the PCUSA, the Episcopols and the MEthodist church are very accepting. My kids have been involved in the Methodist church youth group off and on for years. On the other hand, we've removed our kids from two youth groups that either treated the non member parents like scum( and yes, we contributed financially to their youth group) or our kids came home with 'you're not a Christian' type stuff, which neither hubby or I was comfortable with especially having been divided from our families in our TWI tango.. Who gets to choose which truth is truth for all mankind? Isn't the world a healthier place if people can make that choice individually? Because, they are going to, anyway. Even if a religion has the force of the law behind it, some will choose to believe differently. I think one true truth for all of mankind is a fanatsy--it has never existed and never will. I don't think the human spiritual capacity is such that we can all see and accept the same thing as truth, and to expect it leads to strife in the end. Is religious diversity a healthy thing--or should we all believe the same truth? Again, who gets to choose? Are different beliefs a danger to you? Some no doubt are, which is we need a rule of law or zelots of one stripe or another will attempt to take away our freedom. It was just a year ago that fallen pagan soldiers were able to have their religious symbol enscribed on ther tombstones in military cemetaries. And they had to get legal for it to happen. Our open midsummer festival has to have a sherrif presence, guess why? And yet the pagans in my area have never made a habitof harassing those certain churches on Sunday morning.. So don't tell me all Christians are tolerant and anyone who calls them intollerant is in error. In my personal life I avoid those who want to change me for my own good. I think it is arrogant and condescending, even though i know that often the person is sincere in wanting to help me. They are not able to see that it is arrogant and condescending because of their doctrinal thought processes. People who are close to me in my life care for me as I am.

Make mine an iced mocha mint cappachino! With the whipped cream and chocolate shavings on top.

FYI from a common pagan viewpoint, proselytizing is seen as basically disrespectful-- 'Learn of my superior beliefs and leave your inferior ones behind'. Also, seeking is of high importance to many pagans--you seek to find your truth so it is genuine, not accept anothers because they want you too, which could wrap you up in a belief that is not really genuine to you. When someone presents their beliefs(and I am not saying you have done this) as the spiritual eqivalent to the cure for cancer, that has the unfortunate result of painting another's beliefs as the cancer. For those on the 'cancer' side, it is uncomfortable and frustrating, and sometimes scary.

I tried to edit above post but I couldn't get it to complete edit.

Thanks for the offer, geisha, but it is a proselytizing site with top goal of changing pagans into Chrisitans. I have absolutely no interest in involving myself anywhere that has an agenda to change me into something else. I am comfortable at GSC because people come from all different directions, adn there is no one agenda. Copied from site: ExWitch exists to accomplish the following goals: win Pagans and occultists to faith in Jesus Christ disciple any Christians in the ministry’s sphere of influence educate Pagans, the Church, and the public about the occult in a fair, truthful manner equip the Church to do the same work encourage cooperation between like-minded ministries and organizations I know in your mind you are offering me a lifeline, and I am well aware I could go to any number of churches and get lots of attention by converting. Since I do not believe in the Bible as the Word of God, in an omnipotent god, in the creation story, in the Fall of Man, in the need for a savior, or in the fact that a savior actually came, in one true belief, I would only be subjecting myself to it in order to please someone else. I'm sure you would find a site that declares its intent to change you from a Chrisitan to a pagan quite disturbing.

I scored highest in Artist, with the next highest, helper and skeptic tied. Which sounds like me.

Sheesh, our local phone book has a typo in my husband's name! Now they will never find us.

Wowie Zowie. Apparantly Geish'a beliefs are nothing like I thought after reading her posts--sorry I misinterpreted. I was not posting out of malice. Still I find the topic interesting, and the responses, too. I do not personally believe in a god that damns others to Eternal suffering...my diety is like family, mother. No hell was a HUGE selling point for me in getting into TWI, very liberating and a big relief in some ways. Of course, later I learned the rest of the story, about devils spirits under every dust peck and hell on earth as handed down by leadership...but that first 6 months, a year, very light time in life for me. Even in college( I went to a catholic college) I questioned alot...quit doing that in TWI in favor of the renewed mind to power, I doubt I would have ever gotten involved in the fire and brimstone type of Chrisitianity even if I hadn't got into TWI. I suspect I would have done what most of my cousins and siblings have done--be very lapsed Catholics or Mormons with a touch of New Agey. beliefs/superstitions.

Geisha, the last few posts by you on the 'What makes a cult' thread seemed to me to be saying that all but orthodox, trinity believing Chrsitians are hell bound. The verses you posted in this thread did nothing to change that perspective. I wondered if fear of hell motivated people here.

Knitting? Cake decorating? Water Ballet? What is your new obsession, Exxie?

Yes, I was refering to the Eternal Damnation type of Hell, which involves eternal suffering for those that are/were not Chrisitan, or the right kind of Christian.

I'm really not trying to get people to beg me back into being a Christian, nor am I whining. I was discussing. My viewpoint had more to do with the fear motivation of the doctrine, the us vs them implications, which I must have really poorly communicated. Wordwolf, the verses you brought up seem to conflict with those geisha shared, but they do make more sense in view of loving God. Spudazo, in case you missed it, eternal damnation was brought up in context of non trinitarian Christians like Mormons, wafers, ex wafers etc etc. One type of Christian is okay, another is in grave danger... According to geisha's doctrine as I understand it, most of the best people I have known in life end up eternally damned, ( not an 'orthodox' Protestant Christian among them)which makes no sense at all in context of any type of love, to me. And I think geisha seems like a lovely person, her doctrine just makes little sense to me. and I wonder how an obviously loving person reconciles it within, and so far the answer seems to be that the focus is on other things, the good things,the things she really want to talk about, not those pesky Bramble thoughts. We did this is TWI, too, but more extreme because we of course isolated ourselves from those not like us, and unbelievers were frequently enough vilified that we could look at them warily, and it made us vs them easier to live with. We were so very busy with US.

I am glad we got out when we did, and that GSC was available to us so we could think outside of the TWI box.

Geisha-- A just and loving God, who damns men to suffering for ALL ETERNITY for their sixty or seventy human years in the wrong church does not look just, loving or wise at all to me. He looks overly angry and punitive, the punishment looks like overkill, the great powerful omnipotent god against some puny mistaken human soul, who didn't even know they were wrong. Of course the all powerful god will win, but it makes him look like a villian who should be stopped. I was talking about people who hold different religious doctrines, even different Christian doctrines--not ax murderers, or poisoners or the latest hitler. Watered Garden, thank you for posting, it sounds like you have investigated the matter. I did not know of the varieties of beliefs you posted. I do know that not all Christianity is hellfire and brimstone, but not particulars. Rumrunner, great quotes, not annoying or rude at all. Life is art without eraser, how very true, plus who knows when our candle blows out. Heck, I've been damned since I was 18 by one church or another.

People can choose what they want to believe--it baffles me that people would choose to believe this and feel in any way good about it. Seems like the ultimate 'cool crowd.' Again, shades of TWi to me. Funny, I remember as a child being glad I was so lucky to be born in the right church(RC). My poor Congregationalist neighbors(dad taught Sunday school), hell bound.They ALWAYS missed Mass and NEVER went to confession. I see unbelievers I know doing the types of things in the prior verses in Matthew all the time. Hmm, still unbelievers, though, still don't believe Jesus is their God...etrnal suffering and destruction for them Looks like pure ugly to me, even if it is in the Bible. Plus I know other Christians out there do not believe the damnation doctrine all exactly the same as this, but I doubt any of those will post here of their reasoning.

I suspect it irritates me, geisha, because I was in TWI for most of my adult life. I saw US vs THEM dramas play out in many situations( and experienced it up close with my hubby's family), which led to divisions in families, friendships and marriages--over 'doctrinal' issues, NOT evil behavior issues. I approach these forums as exway. It is the only place in my life where I can express any thought about TWI or doctrinal issue, since my hubby will not talk about it. I also saw fear manipulation ALL THE TIME. It was a major motivator in TWI, in marriages and childrearing. Am I the only one that sees similarities? Sees dissonance and division, negative impacts ? And why can't I discuss it and see what others have to say? Just what are the positives of the damed to hell doctrine? As far as missing out on wonderful friendships--I choose not to have friendships with those who would be thrillied if I changed.