Bramble

I am not interested in a thread about why bramble is not a Christian, so this is all I will say to the above. geisha, I self identify as an eclectic Wiccan( or eclectic Wiccanlike pagan, depending who I am chatting with). That 'title' gives people a connecting place. I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself. I don't believe in the Bible as the Truth( I also don't believe the gnostic gospels as the truth), or in one god, or in the Fall, or original sin or in a savior for mankind, or in one way, one religion for all mankind. I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc. Those are Christian beliefs, obviously, not mine. I am not fearful of the Bible God or Hell and am willing to take full responsibilty for my life in this life and the next. I find the idea of someone praying for me to leave my beliefs and accept their beliefs rather insulting. Some Wiccans/pagans believe that type of prayer is manipulative magic and brings no good because manipulation of another without their consent is a type of harm. I do not see the doctrinal forum as a place to 'win' people to my religion. I believe they should seek and find their own truths.

In the gnostic gospel of Mary Magdalene(you can find it online) Mary is referred to as the disicple Jesus loved more than the others--I guess that is where it comes from. And the Davinci code book.

It is not that it has already been said-- It is that an individual ex or current TWI poster has not said it. In TWI they had no voice. Even after leaving they were held by the 'speak no negatives lest the ministry be blamed, renew your mind, you are more than a conquorer, your believing brought you this misery... Those are the people who need a place like GSC, even if they left years ago. GSC helps individuals unravel the blame and guilt they may have lived under for years. And yes, some of them could find it in counseling, with a good counselor, insurance that covers it and /or the financial abliity to pay. But not too many TWI thinkers would hop straight into counseling while still believing many of the TWI 'truths' they were taught there, due to the view of mental health counseling TWI held.

Innocent in the eyes of God--In real life 'whores' are often victims of sexual abuse as children, or victims of sexual attacks or drug addicts/alchoholics or poverty stricken with few choices. How different were the whores in Bible times than now?

I am somewhat involved in a Catholic Charities food bank here in town and know that even here where we haven't seen tons of lay offs, the bank was emptier than it has ever been at Christmas. Normally they try to do a turkey and trimmings box to their regular folk, those that live on retirement wages and disability, mostly, and they were way short of the number needed. It seemed like the churches that responded the most were the mainline churches who have a long history of such charities. Yet those are the churches with the smaller numbers and aging populations. Which is sad and a little scary--where will the charities be in 10 to 20 years as these folks age and die?

I was in TWI in the nineties, when to have a financial(or health) need was a grave personal weakness and error in your walk as a believer. Even worse, your weakness affected the strength of the 'good' believers and you were viewed with spiritual suspicion as an open conduit for devil spirits into the Household. After we left TWI I ran into the health and wealth type churches, where if you don't have it, it is some type of lack you must overcome because God is just waiting to load you with goodies. In contrast, I was raised Roman Catholic, where poverty health and financial struggle were seen as not at all an indicator of spiritual health. So now I'm curious. How has the economic realities of our times affected this doctrinal belief in the churches that follow it? Are they mustering to give aide to the needy? Are they cold shouldering their needy, like TWI did? Are they moving church monies into aide and relief programs? I know our small town version of a mega church( a couple thousand members where most congregations are closer to 100 members) has decided to build a huge church complex on the edge of town, so from what I've picked up from co workers etc(hubby's boss is an elder in this church) is that they are pretty much unchanged in focus at this time. It seems to me that this doctrinal belief could buckle somewhat under the current conditions. I know it didn't seem to fit into our 'real' world after we left TWi.

I thought about this thread all day. I do think there is still need for an ex TWI place like this, but I don't think Pawtucket has to sacrifice his life and dreams to run it. But I still know many people in TWI and I wonder about what it will be like for them if they ever leave. Some have been so obedient and so ground down for so long, with no voice, a fear of different opinions, fear of devil spirits. Then all the confusion of leaving friends and maybe family. I see them as having a difficult transition and needing a place like this for awhile. Finding a voice is important, I think, especially to the women who had both a 'head' and TWI leadership running her life!

My husband was a wow in '79-'80 in Kalispell(my home town) and Billings,where I went to college. I took PFAL that summer. I have fond memories of that time, they were a great group of people.

I don't spend as much time here as i once did because my life has changed in the past few years. I've thought alot and processed alot from my TWI years by being here and it helped me so much. Pawtucket, thanks for GSC. I think that an Ex TWi forum will continue somewhere somehow if it is a need, but I don't think your life and time has to be the price for such a forum. Go live the life you want!

Can't raise poultry in city limits, but you can raise rabbits...

We are okay as far as jobs go, and we are glad we stayed in our little house instead of moving up to something more expensive. I don't expect either of us to lose our jobs in 2009, but if things don't improve I could see a department cut or lay off in 2010, I think. Health care expensies are what kill us--health insurance goes up yearly and they get around paying thousands by stating our small town is more expensive for a service than our "region" which includes cities with more than 1million population. So we are never free of med bills. We do plan to double the size of our garden, and we can apply for another garden plot at a community garden. Hunting can put meat in the freezer, though usually we don't hunt since a friend of ours gives us free meat from his game processing plant.

Inspired!

For me forgiveness has to be real--I can't fake it and have no religious reason to try. People I love, people in my life like family, are easy for me to forgive--noone I surround myself with acts with malice toward me. They re just human, notperfect. In my TWI past I do believe there were those that acted with malice. Those I don't forgive, but then I have no relationship with them to see if they've changed and I have no interest in rebuilding a false friendship. Others from my TWI past are alot like I was back in my TWI days, followers forced by emotion (fear) and beliefs to think and act in certain ways--I have no problem forgiving them. I see them as being in a trap.

As far as i know, no fellowship info is open to the public. There is no directory of fellowships that I'm aware of! If you want to find a fellowship I believe you have to contact the Way HQ--probably by letter.

We were frank with our kids about the $$ situation this year. So we have a plan that is not too expensive. Are some of you making palns that don't involve expensive gifts? Some of the things we are going to do: Bake- we all love cookies, pluckit, glass candy Applesauce/cinnamon ornaments- they are fragile and we haven't made them in years, but they smell so good. Decorate--almost all my Christmas/Yule stuff is post TWI Community activities for free--Tuba CHristmas(low brass Concert. One of my kids is in that) Brass Christmas--an all brass concert(again, kids in that) Hanging of the greens at the Methodist Church(kids go there) and at the Public Library Shop for new baby girl in family(my sisters' daughter is due in January, we are all very excited.) Tacky sweaters. We get them at at a second hand store and wear them for the family pictures for the newsletter. Connect with all the cousins--I have about 40 cousins with families. Email! Our Elderly Aunts, in their eighties and nineties, two were widowed this year. We plan to visit and bring treats etc more than usual Night Ice Skating with my sis and her son--at a beautiful city park tree lined pond with lights

I was on a customer complaint phone line for 11.5 hours on Black Friday! Yuck. Sale items were 'while supplies last' but many people had to complain or try to get compensation.

In TWI think, weakness of any sort--anything that is less than perfect--is of the Adversary--and someone else's weakness can affect Your good believing and bring disaster to you. Being judgemental and critical of others is considered spiritual maturity--because you are keeping weakness away from you. If you are sick, it was your lack of believing. The proper reponse to illness is to get rid of it via a miracle or ministering. If that doesn't happen, then the best thing is to try to ignore and hide the illness, and continue on with your ministry responsibilities. Rarely will anyone in the TWI household offer to help someone dealing with illness other than ministering or prayer--you have to ask for help, and of course it comes with strings attached. If you need lots of help you are a burden to God's people. They also rarely help with other life events such as births and deaths. For help in those times you need to rely on your natural man, earthly family. Chronic illness, like diabetes, means you have some form of chronic weakness in your life, an open door to the Adversary. You maybe be reproved and rebuked for this illness. No conmfort there. In fact, in TWI it wasn't uncommon for parents of young children to be reproved alot about childhood illneses like ear infections. One one of my kids was very ill--pnuemonia, double ear infections, throat infection, following a cold. Kid missed 21 days of kindergarten, (and when school got out we got the tonsils out--but by then we had left TWI). But during that time when the child was sooo ill--we didn't tell anyone in our fellowship. We didn't take the child to evening fellowships anyway because we couldn't get home until 2 hours after kids's bedtime. I chose not to bring it up during twig prayers because I knew after fellowship I would get nailed by the coordinator for my lack of believing--and I was afraid that would make my believing even worse because of the added fear. Kid wasn't in the hospital, I didn't want kid in the hospital! Ugly doctrine makes ugly people. Hard times due to illness are made much worse bythe attitude of the believers. I'm so glad to be out of that stuff.

Nor will they run my kids through an emotional grinder.

In real churches people have choices--they can choose to join a discussion and buy the book(though in my experience Sunday school classes and their study guides are free), they can choose to take a class for money( again in my experience, the local Methodist church has a new members class for free), and if they choose not to do those things they are still members in good standing. I'm not a church member but I choose to fund a youth group financially because a couple of my kids are in it, and I can afford to give. There are some kids involved who's parents can't or won't support the teen group's projects--but their kids are still welcome. We even arrange car pools. TWI was not like that. PS Does anyone remember in the nineties when a couple had to have 2 Way Mag subscriptions??? And bring them to fellowship on mag sharing night? Blatant money grab.

Why is this doctrinal? Why is this doctrinal?

Bubble Up Pizza 3 packages (7.5 oz) refrigerator buttermilk biscuits 1 jar (14 oz) pizza sauce, divided 3 cup shredded mozzarella cheese, divided 1 large clove garlic Optional toppings: 1/2 c onions, 1/2 cup black olives, 1/2 cup mushrooms, 1 cup chopped pepperoni (We have done ham and pineapple tidbits, too) Preheat oven to 350 degrees. In 2 quart bowl, quarter biscuits. Stir in 1 cup pizza sauce & 2 cups cheese. Press garlic clove and add to biscuit mixture. Chop optional toppings and add to mixture; stir to combine. Spread mixture in deep backing dish. Pour remaining sauce & cheese over top. Bake 35-40 minutes. cut into wedges and serve.

Here's a similar co-op for the Rock Mtn States ~~ http://www.sharecolorado.com/ Kansas~~ http://www.heartlandshare.com/ California~~ http://www.goldensharefoods.com/ Food Share is a program through Catholic Charities in many areas of the country--you can probably google and find your area.

Yeah, I'd like to see the little dog take on the Big Huge Dog. It would be funny. TWI would be way outclassed in finances and other resources.

LOL Now I am really curious about what Hape4Me might have done!

I was only referring to my own experience, not TWI as a whole. For me the few years in a small town running a small twig were not cultlike. What was happening to others in TWI I was at that time,totally unaware of. Things are different now, of course, because I know more--but back then I did not.