Gen-2

It's pretty understandable (and somewhat expected) thet everyone rode out of twi on their own tracks, and that there is a diversity of opinion regarding beliefs. If someone had set up a vendor's booth to hack religious wares as you left, he'd've been lucky to survive the day. I started this thread with my opinion and a obvious curiosity I've seen people misuse this gift, so I know that can be done. So how a person uses it is somewhat at their discretion. And yeah. it's a gift (holy spirit is). After that point you're dancing with God's words in a symantic rumba Moses parted the Red Sea God parted the Red Sea "And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided." (Exodus 14:21) Roman Jewish historian Josephus Flavius speculated that the parting of the Red Sea "might be of God's will or of natural origin. Let everyone believe at his own discretion." The skeptic's skeptic, Sigmund Freud, called the Passover story "a pious myth," contending that Moses was a rebellious Egyptian prince who worshiped the sun god Aton and made up the Jewish religion as a political ploy. That one's obviously a miracle, to me, the whole Red Sea Parting thing. I saw a TV show that says it was some natural phenomenon, and I have a friend named Mikey that says it's all BS storytime. And then there are those that speculate that the voice of God is a hallucination, Psych-types constantly attempt to cast doubt on most people's personal beliefs, in favor of their explanations. Personally, my favorite ones are the ones that use the bible to achieve personal notoriety. But my question about spirit is now,... Wait!,... what's that? My spider sense is tingling....... better go now, OFF to save the world yanno?

It was dark. It was raining, and I didn't know my older bother Josh had been looking for me for 6 hours. I was sitting on a rock. I had been there for a long time. I was soaking wet. I looked down. The wet ground was a half a meter below where I was sitting crosslegged and I could only remember seeing the date - 08 Oct 2009, yesterday's date now. It sank in then, that he was as dead as the rock I bought and was sitting on. I hopped off into the wet mud and took a look at the rock. I took a second or two letting it register in my brain. That was my father's name alright. I started then to kick that rock. '"But - - - - you - - - - promised!" I'm not sure how many times I yelled that. There was mud everywhere. Somewhere inside I felt bad, as though I had disrespected him and I waited a while for the rain to wash all the mud off of everything. I heard a sound in the rain behind me as the rain picked up again. Josh was standing there with an umbrella, wrapped in a long macintosh coat. I'm not sure how long he'd been there. He walked up to mom's tombstone, which was next to dad's, said something I couldn't hear, and then walked up to me and handed me the umbrella. Without thinking I took it. Watching the rain hit Josh I began to laugh. He just waited there. I of course was already soaked to the bone, the umbrella couldn't change that. Then he said, "You going to let me get all wet, or are we going to go?" He pointed at some distant lightning and said, "It's not smart to stand out here holding an umbrella." I kept his umbrella, sisters do that kind of thing. I still have it. More later

There's only so much I need to or even want to pick out of here, but for the most part all of the answers to what I asked are here now. Basically if there's te need for a miracle there's going to be someone there to believe for it and God is going to be able to deliver. The idea that God would ever Refuse to help his Kids is just alien to my brain. So I believe it is the anytime you're ready thing, that governs this, because I believe that God is always ready and that that truth doesn't change. It doesn't even really make sense to me that it could. Believing is always the requirement. It is funny to think this way, but when you're in a situation where spiritual power is going to be "dipped into" It's often all going to happen very quick, I think those lengthy definitions are nice to look at but matter little in the moment. I think this is what Cman was trying to tell me. It ain't no time to be goin' "Lookie what I can do!" or your gonna F up and end up having your 4$$ handed to you. You really have to believe who you are, and that God's right there with you. This manifestation of spirit is an intermix chamber of any needed aspects at the time and the end result is how they forge the reality of some desired result. God knows what's needed when you ask and he puts it all in motion, but yeah, you'd better hold on tight and do your part. And then it's over, just like that. I'm really gonna have to trust God and do this soon. He's just gonna have to do His part But I have to do this like within this week.

Other Information (I'm not saying it's correct) source is: http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rsr_vcchap1-2.htm A SCHOLARLY EDUCATION? While Wayers proudly call Rev. Wierwille "Doctor, " the biographies in his books never mention the source of his degree (though the wording leads some readers to believe that he received it from Princeton.) Perhaps The Way is embarrassed because Wierwille received his Th.D. in 1948 from Pike's Peak Bible Seminary in Manitou Springs, Colorado.(28) In its checkered 60 year history, this institution has never been accredited nor recognized as reputable by any agency.(29) Herbert Diamond summarizes the weaknesses of Pike's Peak as an educational institution: "In a letter from the Colorado Commission on Higher Education, a state official says that Pike's Peak seminary had no resident instruction, no published list of faculty, and no accreditation, and no agency of government supervised it. It offered its degree programs by "extramural..' methods, involving the sending of book reviews and papers by mail. The degrees, the official says, have no status except with the institution that conferred them" ''(30) Wierwille once defended Pike's Peak Seminary by claiming that its president at the time he attended was Dr. H. Ellis Lininger who "had been the head of the Department of Education for the state of Colorado."(31) While Lininger had been president of Pike's Peak, the Colorado Department of Education informs us that Lininger never did head this department as Wierwille claims.(32) Wierwille also claims "I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute, too, through their correspondence courses. "(33) Yet, Paul D. Wieland, Director of Moody's correspondence school, contradicts Wierwille's claim. Moody's records contain the names of all students who have completed courses since the school's inception in 1901. Wierwille's name never appears, indicating that if he took any courses, he never completed a single one.(34) During the summer of 1943 Wierwille did serve as a guest professor of practical theology at Gordon Divinity School under the presidency of Dr. Nathan R. Wood.(35) Wierwille claims that sometime in his ministry, he became so tired of "reading around The Word" of God that he hauled over 3,000 volumes of theological works to the city dump.(36) It is difficult to accept or place this in Wierwille's chronology, since he clearly relies on books and does not offer a date for this occurrence. While this dumping may have happened around 1950, it is evident that he soon accumulated more books, many of them superficial treatments of Scripture topics, which came to dominate his thinking

"Dr. Wierwille received his undergraduate divinity degree at Mission House (Lakeland) College and Seminary. He afterward studied at the University of Chicago and at Princeton Theological Seminary, where he was awarded a Master of Theology degree in Practical Theology. After graduating he was invited to study at Oxford University, in England, but would complete his doctorate sometime later under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well-known homiletician, at the Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College in Manitou Springs, Colorado." http://www.biblicalresearchjournal.org/brj-pages_html/001mm04_teachings_vpw.html

Sunesis I will read this several times today I think and write some questions this evening, because your answer is the "horse of another color" and I want to look at what you said again. Right now I have a lot of calculations to do for work stuff.

Thanks Doojable. I can be a real pest yanno? ...^^^I think you're right^^^...

Thank you cman. I wasn't trying to kick you. Well, crap, okay,... that's not entirely honest. What I mean is I wan't trying to kick you personally, But I was trying to kick you into saying something I understood better. I was fairly sure I wasn't getting what you meant - because you tried to explain or clarify the second time and people that are just being mean to you don't really ever bother. You said ..."Perhaps you missed that,..." Indeed I did. Perhaps I do not know everything you know, eh? It's why I'm asking. I very much appreciate your replies cman. Do not take my frustration for ingratitude please. In my termsI'd say,... I realize God's gift isn't a tinker toy. and that once I decide to use it - it opens a different realm, the spiritual one. The power in that is great and I have no plans to be stupid with it. Thank you for being patient enough to keep answering me until I began to see!

Well cman, I'm asking. I'm knocking. Here in this forum I'm soliciting your opinions to see if I'm missing something. Your replies have been rather legalistic. What to do - do not, warning away that I could gut myself etc maybe I'm just reading your words. They don't come supplied with *intent* but you definitely imply that I'm wandering into danger by asing to be given what God Promises. ...that the gift is bad. Luke 11 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 And of which of you that is a father shall his son ask a loaf, and he give him a stone? or a fish, and he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he give him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? The closest I could find to "gutting oneself" was this, but the guy involved wasn't exactly asking God Acts 19 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 insomuch that unto the sick were carried away from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the evil spirits went out. 13 But certain also of the strolling Jews, exorcists, took upon them to name over them that had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, a chief priest, who did this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said unto them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are ye? 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and mastered both of them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, that dwelt at Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. So your most recent remark,... This "consume",... you're saying it's a bad thing or a good thing? You tell me. You make it sound as if you think God gives harmful things. Re-read your words and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see that this would be the most common view of them. After all, you're warning me away from what God has to give, saying I can be gutted and consumed... And then I look at what the Bible says about God giving to his children Really different approaches there, don't you think?

You said something about the double-egged sword (well you mentioned it...). Swords have handles and if someone wants to gut themselves, I, most likely, can't stop them. I remember when My Dad gave my brother his first Razor. He kept looking like the "Poster Boy" of Nicks and Cuts. Razors have handles too. Sometimes you just have to "gut yourself" a few times to learn how to shave, eh? I bought a Ladder at Home Depot this weekend. It has 11 safety warning stickers on it (I counted). I managed to change the big long flouescent bulb in my Kitchen without succumbing to any of the terrors those stickers described. Yes it's a lighthearted poke at you cman but since you don't seem to wish me well at all, I just thought I'd make that point. Yeah, I know the place. I've been there, Sorry if you got scared or hurt. I love people that presume I'm some wallflower. God knows what I want already,... I don't need to keep asking. Still I'm welcoming the thoughts of others here. I'll try not to inhale the milk.

Okay thanks Tom, and I mean that. You see, I feel sort like that guy standing there getting soaking wet yelling at God. ~ at this point. And I think it can happen myself, that's what I think. You said "It's really much easier when you're around people who are doing it." and I don't doubt that, but I haven't had the pleasure either.. I do know that when you're around people who think it's not possible, that it isn't for them. I'm still right where I started this thread out at, but I did take some encouragement from your post Tom. edited for mistakes in typing some.

This reply has me completely lost, The fact that I agree with your points isn't of any help to me. Whatever, It doesnt answer anything I asked. Interesting additional information What it doesn't mean Nor/not act can not be Are we to,... I hope not But not one thing on How to, what to, is, can do, does mean - or we can/hope so This pretty much doesn't help me to move ahead with anything I must be missing something or you are just being mean to me and commenting that my question is stupid and you are pointing out that I am doing everything wrong, that you know better, and have decided to be smug and not share Clarify this?

I did ask, I guess I'm just waiting on God now. I've heard people saying yes and no,... it can or it can't happen. Lots of people have different ideas on this, but I've never done a miracle or been with someone that actually has... ...and you'd know I am guessing - a Miracle in Manifestation would be, uhm, well,... manifest - right? If you know any of these people by name, let me know.

In the Aviation Industry, you need engineers to design cutting edge aircraft, but ultimately it comes down to the test pilots. They're the ones that go out and see if all that research pays off. Testing the principles the new aircraft was founded on and reporting back where they feel the tail-rudder is sticking or the engine doesn't feel smooth during such and such a maneuver. How well the test flight goes allows the engineers to know whether their research was correct and where corrections are required. Spiritual Geeks and Jocks, working together for the family. Trying to secure a smoother ride for the kids. Point is, we need both the geeks and the freaks IRL. and if you can do both you're more balanced, but perhaps not really as good as you could be at only one. It could also come down to simple desire. Your just better, let's say, at one than the other so you would rather do that. Trying to do it all on your own, like penworks numbered points above, can be quite trying, as you end up so buried in the minutae of the steps you're taking that you have no time to enjoy the life God Gave you. And if God is all about making your life miserable,... Why worship Him? I see from reading the forums that many of you gave up or just said the hell with it. It's just what I see. Some reflected on it all and decided to throw out the broken parts and try to keep what they thought good, and there are a variety of other positions. Not everything in the Way was broken, not everything was damaged maybe, But enough of it was to do all this! The fruit is basically the end-product of a Tree adn your lives are the fruit of the Way, a tree that was infected and apparently still is. That's how I see it.

The things that twi "researched" are the things I got taught, I spoke my first word when I was seven, and in about four years from that I was put in High school with older kids because I learned quickly. Later on I ended up getting tossed into a "Boarding Home Girls School" sort of thing which was Catholic, I lived and schooled there for four years. But before that my Dad had taught me the whole class and I dead everything he gave me and soaked everything up like a sponge that he taught. So when I went off to Laurel Hill Secondary School in LKimerick Ie., I'll bet you can see my bible views were a big hit. Especially Jesus Christ is not God. This is a good way to get beat up a lot by Bigger kids than you. For a while I was put to live with one of the sisters to protect me, I think. I can see a bit what people that leave have to put up with. Of course they wanted me to be a catholic aznd they also have their own research which often means Church Tradition is the Word of God (even if it is stupid) and if it changes it is only because donations are getting slow,.... Like when it was discovered that the earth was not the center of the Universe and that the sun does not revolve around it. Also seems all groups have their specialty Item which must not be questioned and this includes non-christians even Scientists and Philosophers. I am sad for people that feel trapped in that system - especially since they have feet to walk (at any time) away from there. It's difficult for me to see how someone could be so terrified to do so, but I read in GS and I see a little bit of why. their loved oned will be used as "betting chips" (like at Las Vegas) against them or the twi people will be mean to them - out of what? SPITE? And I thought I had my hard times! I am glad I did not have to do those things, I think getting shot at was easier.

In My case I'm the kid (though 29 now), I'm not in the Way. Never was. But My dad was a tremendous influence in my life. Taught me the Bible. Much of that obviously came from what he learned in the Way. Never did I have the troubles many of you describe, and I'm certainly not complaining about that fact. Dad never made me go anywhere for Way things and he got out when I was little in 1990. Now I was only ten then. So till I was 10 I could have been in the Way, except for one thing I have Aspergers Syndrome and was totally Autistic as a little kid. I spoke my first words when I was seven. Good news is I am now working on a PhD (yes I have some difficulties yet) Mom died a while back. Dad Died last year and I have lots of teaching in my head that might be wrong. So I am trying to sort it out. Greasespot has been helpful. As an unregistered person I read so much from the site. By the time I was understanding enough to go to fellowships, dad was no longer in the Way Mom's and Dad's don't tell kids everything, but I lknow they were both hurt by the Way very bad. So In my case, I'm the kid. I'm grown up, Self sufficient, and have no one in this world. I suppose until I sort out Way Teachings and decide what is right for me the best I can, I am still inviolved. but in a different way. Events put in action can have ramifications to others. I guess I'm just a ramification.

If you read anything written once the person that wrote it is "history" you can always say, That person never really existed. George Washington never really existed so he wasn't really the first American President, You can even say the Eiffel Tower doesn't exist or come up with your own theories about conspiracies. Of course this is true. You can say anything. That might be why Love is so important, because we are so easy to hurt sometimes. when I think I have figured out something in the Bible,... like a promise, I go out and try it in my real life. Usually it does not work and I feel stupid about it, but I try and sometimes it works I learn a lot this way even though I fail a lot and people make fun of me for this. But if I fail, they were right and say I should have listrened to them. Thing is,... they aren't always right. Neither am I. But they talk while I "do". I tried to raise a dead guy once near Basra, in 2007. Sorry to report he did not live nor was I successful to raise him. I was very mad at God for that time. which is silly and stupid, but I even tried to put his brains back in his head. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I know. I liked him, that guy. I killed a few people that day in return and it's a bad thing to feel in your heart later. I will just do my best to learn from the writings Paul wrote. I think God inspired him and could always be wrong Love is better than argueing and killing

I think people get this gift and can misuse it. That would mean that. just like everything else in God's Word - there are rules and people can break them and sin. No new concept People that know how to Speak in tongues can do it at the wrong time, just as a for instance But to do a miracle, or to heal a person, you nust first listen to God I think, and our hard heads suffer there. We are too ignorantly stupid to listen to God because we know it all. People that can't get past giving themselves revelations, instead of letting God talk will have no success with the power manifestations. So far, I see this includes me. In this way God capped misuse. though from time to time he lets an fool of a person work His power because there is no one else that believes to. Anything from God can be misused I think if a person gets a hold of it

Yeah. I gathered some of this from the way you answered earlier. I don't think the answer is in those teachings either. If it were, people would be commonly doing those things after learning what they needed to know to believe. Yet I don't discount that God would want a reliable cell Phone to talk to His kids or that he would want to give them the power they needed if it was necessarry. He could do something phenominally unique each and every time, but He tends to do the stuff He does in a more ordered way. I see this in Physics and Math a lot. If you give up on the idea that God cares, well then there probably wouldn't be any gift(s) and Manifestations wouldn't be an issue. I don't have the answer, just questions. It's possible there's an answer. It seems that if there is, the teaching given on the "Other 6" in that class was probably wrong, because it doesn't reliably work. One of the things I'm having to learn in Quantum Physics is the you really can't discard Possibilities, and that many things we thought were scientifically impossible, are actually possible, oh say,... if you had enough power. But we're talking impossible amounts that no one has... Just sayin'

<grin> It's actually a grand idea - sort of - to think of going out with someone that knows how, and to learn how by "hanging out" with them. Unfortunately I know no such people. You have a very sharp sense of humor Bolshevik, quite the smart alek. Forgive me for not seeing that right off the bat WordWolf, I read those old posts. I read a LOT of posts. I can't identify with you guys that got all angry about the Way. I wasn't in it. I can understand what I can read though, and I'm glad I wasn't hurt as they were, as you were. It's not to poke any fun at you guys, but maybe to lighten my mood a bit when I say that a phrase comes to mind. "Well, that's going to leave a mark." But I can see it has. I'm ....ed that this all happened, Stupid remark but that's it there, how I feel. My dad died last Sept, and he was like this too, like a lot of what I read. He never talked about a lot of this stuff to me. He encouraged me to learn though. to push beyond the derision I get personally form people that hear me speak and say I am retarded (if you heard me speak - you'd understand that remark) So I'm going to keep looking for my answers, I'm also going to keep "doing" IRL maybe I'll get it right

Mine's a Selmer and I have a couple of mouthpiece setups for it, One for smooth, one for jazzy and sassy. I tell my friends that ask me to "prove" God exists to sit down and listen. Good Music is a wonderful thing,... but fair warning! NEVER ask me to sing!

I have a list of definitions for them. They are written in the notebook paper pages of my dad's Bible, in the back It says they are from the - Advanced Class '79. After that he has written 16 numbered things called Keys to Walking in the Spirit. But it would appear he had some reservations, because after those it says: "#17. ...and if none of that crap WORKS,... Love people. That's more important anyways." I don't doubt that a lot of stuff was palgarized and tweaked. Weirwille found the perfect profession for that, preaching. Ministers quote God for a living without giving him credit, so why not do the same with other people? Yeah - I know screwy logic, but there you have it. I'm going to think about all this and post something more specific in here soon ( Day or so). Thanks for replying Waysider

I shouldn't laugh, why is this funny?

Yes I love this. I like that she writes with an understanding that God loves us. And there is wonder in her words, not a condescension. As children of God, we are not all perfect physically, and Normal,.... Well who's really "normal"? What exactly is that anyways? Who reads what people write to see the heart behind the words. And who reads to find any small "mistake" they can find, ticking them off on a secret mental checklist in their mind. Is she finished with the whole book now? if she is - let us know how we might get a copy of it.

I have heard this story, and I was never in the Way Ministry, but I heard it when I was in Ireland as a teenager.