soul searcher

That's a messed up story. And I feel terrible about that lady who eventually died. But strangely -- because I don't know if this was your intended point -- what I took away from it was that nobody was killed, although several (or all) could easily have been. It seems to me that God might actually have been watching over this group. Does God ever "watch out" for anybody? I don't know. I can say this: given how reckless I was at times in my life I was always sure that there had to be a "guardian angel" watching over me -- otherwise, I'd be dead. Or is it all just "pure luck"? As a news-junkie who reads the paper daily, this is something I struggle with: so many terrible things happen to so many innocent people. But supposedly God is always watching, and he knows everyone's heart. And yet, how could an innocent person have done anything to deserve a terrible, senseless fate? Praying, believing, "moving mountains"...but who among us would not want to "move a mountain" in order to save one child from evil?

Well said. And I agree with you. But, taken to its logical end, knowing that the universe does not revolve around us produces (in me, anyway) a sad, existential loneliness. We are alone. Most Christians I know do not feel this way. They believe that God is with them most of the time and/or that He "talks" to them occasionally. A belief in the Christian God necessariy encompasses this belief, otherwise, of what comfort is God? Why pray? Personally, I do pray, although it rarely produces comfort.

Thanks, waysider. Nice post. It just so happens that I, personally, am waiting to hear God's voice on a certain matter. The problem is, how do separate God's voice from all the other noise that's going on in my head? I'm asking God to give me a sign but I don't know that one is forthcoming. Once or twice in my life I thought I heard a distinct voice telling me something, but it was either something I already knew, or turned out not to be very important in the grand scheme of things, which in turn leads me to believe that it wasn't really God's voice in my head but the misfiring of over-active neurons.

Not to be a wiseguy or anything but I'm sure you know that the clinical term for voices in your head is auditory hallucination, which is a classic symptom of paranoid schizophrenia and other mental disorders. My ex-Way friend has some unusual beliefs that border on the irrational, which are symptomatic of depressive disorders and other things. She's definitely not "crazy" now, though at the time she left I thought it was a little weird of her to leave me, her family and friends to join a religious organization. I only mention this because the thread is about mental illness.

Not that it means much to me since I was never in TWI, but I like the way you're deconstructing/debunking TWI doctrine point-by-point. Just a couple of comments: In a sense that statement is true because in the olden days a common cold could easily lead to pneumonia and death. The increase in human life span is primarily due to the development of antibiotics and our ability to treat infectious diseases. I do believe that cell reproduction is driven by God, the life force. (But God said in Genesis that he would limit man's years to 120.) I'm just thinking out loud. Carry on. :)

I have three young boys who love Leggos so I know how messy it can be with all those thousands of little pieces all over the place. lol I love that song. "Way-sanctioned" art? Hee-hee! What nonsense. I'm curious as to how one can identify which songs have hidden "subliminal" messages from the adversary. Could it be the ones that cause hip-shakin' and the ol' "backbone slip"?

There is a lot of real truth and beauty in the world. And it doesn't belong to a "devil", I don't care what anybody says.

I'm pretty clueless about these things, but I'm interested what people think. So then...three questions: 1. Isn't it TWI doctrine that this is the adversary's world? -- that God is not in control? (And if the adversary is in control then doesn't it follow that the adversary permeates everything and is thus inescapable?) 2. Is secular music (i.e., pop, rock, blues, r&b) of the adversary? (If so, how do you know?) 3. Is the adversary in cancer cells? (Or only in healthy, non-cancer cells?) I'm not trying to be sarcastic with these questions (although I might classify them as somewhat pointed). It's just that when people start talking about a "devil", I wonder what they suppose the nature of this devil might be. John 10:10 doesn't give us a lot of detail.

Of course I do. You and Seth had me cracking up. I must say, that after listening to my ex-way friend and the CES/STF/CFFM combine go on and on about "no private interpretation", it felt damn good to say that I make my own interpretation. :B) I'll gladly listen to anybody's interpretation, but I take it with a grain of salt.

I've said this before: it is very liberating to read the bible without ties to some religion or committment to some faith or ideal. I would never accept any one individual's interpretation of the bible as the "correct" or "definitive" one (unless I chose to) because I don't necessarily believe anything that any one person tells me about anything. LOL I like your sense of humor. Your sarcasm reminds me of me. You seem to have come a long way spiritually from your Way days, my friend. What's your Way story? Please share if you want to.

My favorite gifts: -- NIV Study Bible (Zondervan), thumb-indexed and leather bound -- DVD: The Passion of the Christ -- Music CDs: The Beatles - The Capitol Albums (volume 2) Various Artists - What It Is! Funk Soul and Rare Grooves (4-CD box)

As a newcomer to the bible, I tend to agree with you but not completely. For me, the interesting part of reading the bible is trying to figure out what the underlying message is, or was intended to be. Maybe sometimes there isn't one, and maybe sometimes the message is of little use to modern man, but I find it all interesting just the same. Unlike what some may believe, I think many stories in the bible can be interpreted in various ways. And if nothing else, the dark poetry in Lamentations, the love songs of Solomon, the prayers in Psalms and the (sometimes hidden) lessons in Proverbs are just plain fun to read.

I think you're right but I think it goes even deeper. I think many individuals, cutting across all political persuasions and cultural groups, are revolted by and/or afraid of homosexuality. It's uncomfortable to have to explain to your kids why those two men are walking hand-in-hand, or why little Johnny in my class has "two daddies." People just don't want to be presented with those situations. Never underestimate the effects of fear and ignorance.

Intentionally or not, you seem to imply that their is something to "blame" for, as if being gay is a biological mistake, or a curse of some kind. And maybe for some people it is. But even though the thought of men having sex may be "detestable" to me, I don't believe their is anything inherently "wrong" with being gay or having gay sex. First of all, neither the human race (more than 90% straight) nor any other vertebrate species is now, or would ever be in danger of becoming extinct due to some mass conversion to homosexuality on the part of its members. Secondly, even though homosexuality may seem unnatural or disgusting to me, I defend homosexuals' rights to live peacefully without discrimination, reproof or condemnation by anyone who doesn't like their lifestyle. Anyway, the propensity for homosexuality, as far as the data can tell, is probably at least 50% genetically-determined in most cases. And in the end, who cares? Most of us choose to have sex at various times with whoever we choose. In western civilization this is an assumed right. We don't expect intrusive questions from anyone about who we do what with. Finally, to the extent that all of your genes come from your biological parents, then sure, we can all go ahead and "blame the parents" if we want to. Social behavior is determined both biologically and by learning. As a father of twin boys who were raised the same way, I can testify with certainly that personality is largely determined by genetic factors. Most people can agree to that, especially those with twins or multiple-siblings in the family.

It's also the choice of heterosexuals to fornicate and commit adultery, yet I don't see people who choose to commit those sins being branded, discriminated against or victimized, as are many gay people.

I don't know...a sense of proportion, or keeping things in persepctive, maybe? With all the violence going on in the world and with man busy destroying the earth, why would God be concerned with gay sex? I've heard some wacked-out religious nut jobs (Jerry Falwell, etc.) declare that HIV/AIDS is God's punishment for gay sex. To believe that that God punishes gays while they are here on earth but does not punish serial killers, mass murders or pedophiles while they are here on earth is ludicrous. The Romans and Corinthians verses seem to support your argument (I'm not entirely conviced) but Leviticus? Come on...here's a book that tells us about burnt offerings, blood sacrifices and skin diseases. It goes on to tell us about male "discharges" (nocturnal emissions? venereal disease? it doesn't specify), how long males and females are "unclean" after their respective "discharges" (don't touch a menstruating female or you'll be unclean until sundown -- that's a good one). Sorry about the sarcasm. The Book of Leviticus holds little moral or spiritual value for modern man. It's pure fiction with no redeeming value that I can see. I disageee. Every survey of homosexuals that I've ever seen indicates that homosexuality is most often not a choice. Most report that they've always felt that way, or at least since puberty.

I'm sure I don't know God as well as some people here. (I'm not really sure about much these days.) But I am fairly certain of these two points: 1. God doesn't care what you eat. 2. God doesn't care what consenting adults do behind closed doors. And with regard to these two points, I don't care what the bible says. And that's that.

geisha779, excellent post! I realize it was directed at Penworks but, if I may, just two minor points... It seems to me that some people are physically incapable of faith in God. It's not that they don't want to believe in God, it's that their sense of logic and reason won't allow it. And it's not that these individuals don't seek answers -- it's just that for them God isn't it. Salvation from what? I think you said, or implied, earlier that you're not a Christian anymore (correct me if I'm wrong). But do you still believe in eternal life? (I'm not challenging you, just curious.)

That online version looks pretty awesome. Question: is there a reason you suggested the ESV translation in particular? (I'm getting the Zondervan NIV Study Bible for Christmas. Are you familiar with it?) I generally don't worry about possible biases or differences in Bible translation because whenever I'm intrigued, puzzled or otherwise interested in a specific verse or verses I always do a parallel reading on Biblos.com or on e-Sword. I read the NIV because to me it's, well, very readable. Yes, the language in the KJV version is more beautiful and "poetic", if you will, but I don't need to be bogged down by the unfamiliar language. It's the same problem I have with Shakespeare -- I just can't be bothered trying to figure out what they're saying.

@ geisha779: Great post. Thanks. @ Penworks: Thanks again. @ both of you: Thank you for the citations. You two are obviously very well-educated about the Bible. Tell me, if I had to read one (scholarly) book -- and one book only -- about the Bible, which would you recommend? Also, I'm looking for a Bible discussion web site. I can see that there are many knowledgeable posters on this forum but at the same time I realize this is not the main agenda here. Any suggestions?

The more I read about this man (and I use the word "man" loosely), the more incredulous I am that he could have maintained a following for any period of time. He sounds like an absolutely disgusting individual. And that Martindale piece of garbage...they are both monsters.

From a scientific standpoint there are literally dozens of problems with Genesis. I do love reading it, though. If one can accept it as an allegory, or (gasp!) admit that there may be some factual errors in the story, then there are many lessons a reader can take way from it. The story of Cain and Abel, for example, with its themes of jealousy and sibling rivalry is a story for the ages that has played itself out countless times. Almost everyone knows a family where two brothers are estranged because of their differences. The things that bother me about Genesis don't seem to bother other people as much. For example, Adam and Even lived for 900+ years, if I'm not mistaken. If there were a pre-diluvian race of individuals whose life span was nearly a thousand years, wouldn't there be some archeological evidence of it, flood or no flood?

@ Penworks: Great article! I must say, I'm continually impressed by how well ex-TWIers write. I noticed this when I first reconnected with my ex-Way friend via emails (she may have some unusual beliefs, but damn if she can't write!), and it is also evident (for the most part) on this forum. WRT the Way's idea of "research", I see it as being similar to E.W. Bullinger's methodology: start with the premise that the Bible is "perfect" and go from there. Whenever the facts don't seem to add up, jump through hoops (six denials, four crucified, etc.) and use "leaps of faith" (no pun intended) to reconcile them.

That's some f*cked up ..... I had no idea the degree of depravity this VPW dip.... and his minions were engaged in until I discovered the GS web site a couple of months ago. Prior to joining this forum I had thought it to be a good Christian ministry. Anyway, whatever...the guy's dead. TWI never wronged me personally. All I lost to TWI was a girlfriend a long time ago (actually, it goes deeper than that, but never mind). Many of you have suffered much deeper wounds, some less. At any rate, the word on VPW's malfeasance seems to have been out for some time now. Allegations have been made, lawsuits have been filed. Hopefully he and that Martindale scumbag will be judged harshly for their actions and the ministry will fall apart under the weight of its own ugly baggage. P.S. Obviously, VPW and his minions weren't the first holy men -- of any religion -- to prey on women and/or children. And they won't be the last. It's good to remember that.

If it's true that he drugged women and then had sex with them against their will, then he is a rapist. Additionally, drugging unsuspecting victims would result in assault and battery charges in most places.