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THANK YOU Charity!!! Am now ready to check this out ASAP. Sorry so late in replying!!

OMG, THANK YOU THANK YOU T-BONE!!!!!!!!!! And preach it, teach it, EXPOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!! And been cruising around GSC and now cant remember if it was you or someone else who posted this below with a great explanation of how the way corpse was like this below for him/her... God will be the ultimate judge I say, but vp gave into the temptations to take advantage of me and numerous others in the ways so well enumerated above, and for that I personally hold him ACCOUNTABLE. (I think/hope the image will post.)

OMG, THANK YOU for this Charity... I say it with tears welling up, but that is EXACTLY what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K, now I have to grieve all the years I disconnected from Jesus... This will take awhile to recover from, but oh well, what is new????!!!!

If I can share further FREEDOM AND HEALING HERE- I chose not to get involved w/ Jesus Movement folks in '72 b/c of my indoctrination/beliefs that I now remember came from Inter-Varsity CF's anti-Charismatic movement stance tht I was totallyl involved w/ during my college years. "You are raising your hands during singing? I am OUTTA HERE!" But a few years later I said YES to vpw's culture/doctrines/etc. Now reading/viewing lots re: the Jesus Movement, I can actually "time travel back" and "chose" that Jesus-centered path, and connect to what that would have been like in key ways. And this a.m. I had a deeply spiritual re-attaching to the God and Jesus that I lost during my 35 years w/ the way and Chris Geer folks... SOO much fear and confusion gone, since I had had bad church experiences, saw all the denom fighting, etc. And then expereinced some of the worst of the abuses in the way. AMAZING!!! Bedst to you all here!!!!!!!

Sorry took so long to reply! I very much appreciate learning about your and others' personal processings, and our Very Human Common Experiences and Ways of Dealing w/ Abuses, etc. So glad for your new freedom and fresh air!!!!!

SOOOO appreciate your insights and depth folks!!! My contribution (and support-seeking!) here is sharing about the pushback I got on Facebook for challenging a recent post by a still-faithful-twi leader. Here is his original post that got lots of support: "I know Dr Wierwille learned alot from men like Bullinger and Kenyon. I never heard him present it as if it was his work. He presented it as it is in truth and fact, as God's." I posted this- "he did not credit most of what he taught re: receiving the holy spirit in PFAL to BG Leonard when BG had NOT given him permission to do so." Said I could document privately as I remember posters here sharing about vp basically stealing BG's class. I was accused of being "worldly and nitpicky", and there were many who gave evidence of him acknowledging his sources. You all have addressed these issues very well in the past, so am not looking for discussion on that. One particularly interesting thing was someone said that BG attended vp's retirement party; they have photos of BG w/ their daughters. HUH... I responded with "Love you all". and "am glad that GOD is and will be our judge!" Just sharing this here is very helpful, and I learned afresh about who to discuss what w/... Onward!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES! Thank you much!!! Well spoken. And I sooooo appreciate ALL of the aboves!!!

Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p: 1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power. 2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully. 3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them. 4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself. 5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time. Thank you reading!! Onward!

i.e. the Jesus Revolution movie cut...

Of interest? This is from Glenda Sue Morris' FB page posted Saturday, with 102+ comments and contributions! "The Doops and Heefners moved in together in the spring of 1967, and around that time, along with Ted and Liz Wise and Danny Sands, they started the Living Room mission in Haight-Ashbury and ended up moving in together in Novato in the House of Acts. I moved to CA in 1972, so this was before my time, but I met them all and learned from them. They soon took in Lonnie Frisbee, and he's the one that opened up the work in Southern California. It's my belief, based on the book by Pastor John A. MacDonald called "House of Acts," that the Wises, Doops, Heefners and Sands were ground zero of the Jesus Revolution." Then along came Dell and Nancy Dunca et ALL, eh? Someone thought that Donnie Fugit should make the movie cut...? It was just cool to see these possible connections, and time travel back to The Past! (I was in Idaho back-packing in the very early 70's, not so interested in hand-raising Jesus folks, but searching never-the-less! Somehow or other, I still see the hand of God in my life when I got involved w/ the way in VA a few years later...)

Agreed. Wow, the treatment of one another that Jesus SO highlighted... GREAT POINTS!!!

OK... Time for another round of processing after more general cult researching, and reading all of these latest great posts. Thank you all. Crying, journaling, feeling almost unbearable pain, then collecting myself, using my developing critical thinking, then giving voice to the me who wants to come out swinging!!! Onward!! (Comparing twi to Christianity Today's "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill", 25 hours of interviews, the last one of which was 2020 I think... Soooo helpful) Such a better job by some re: some repentance, some restoration, some closure, some genine following of Biblical guidelines!!!) Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!

Thought I would share about Christianity Today's podcast series, ending on 11/10/22-https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/. I am receiving a great deal of deliverance and understanding due to the depth and breadth of the exposure of a cult church, i.e. Mars Hill, with fascinating similarities and differences to twi; the responses of members and leaders; the consequent imploding and down falling; and the continuing cover up by the cult leader. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONNECTING HERE, ADMINS ET ALL!!!!!!!!!!

Well, another afternoon being spent very profitably at GSC, thank you ALL. Lots of copying and pasting in my journalings... A few pretty scattered responses if I may: 1) Quote from Skyrider, Aug 7, 2020- "John Summ3rville.........TFI 1975,76 (Total Fitness Institute in California) the only man (as far as I know) who stood up to wierwille." Well, I recall Ralph D recounting his confronting vp on his adulteries at a head hauncho meeting, but don't recall the year... and being summarily fired, put on house arrest, and shipped out. Or maybe that was Craig?? Hhhmmm... 2) T-bone's quote (sorry, can't find exact post now): "Just some quick thoughts here - with wierwille being an unabashed plagiarist and a control freak – maybe the creative process and creative people truly mystified him as something very foreign and outside his comfort zone – hence he would lower the boom...was it something that threatened him and his "leadership"? was he envious of creative people? Did he want to control the creativity of others?" Possibly! Either way, I agree that it fits that vp's power, control, and narcissistic hold were threatened with the great word in culture movements of the late 70's; I loved the hippie crafts at that ROA! Bought some Really Cool Stuff! I weep at what could have been... 3) I blindly followed cg in '88 along w/ lots of us in IN, so was really good (but tough) to re-evaluate POP (again!), and learn about the truths/various accounts re: Gartmore (and other locations). 4) Damn! re: vp disrespecting girls in that Way Home w/ his nakedness. More like terrorizing... Well, I just can't pull of being humorous about that behavior, as the actual spiritual impact of his unGodly disobedience (LOTS of verses) hits me. Serious spiritual and personal abuse IMO, while not compared to the seductions, rapes, druggings, etc! All for now, phew! Best to all!

Won't go into possible reasons for his choice to divulge those teen-age struggles, or his sharing about taking personality evals and the results...

So catching up here... In the About Me section of his website (which I can't find again right now) he only talks about his adolescent mental health issues of anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts; no football or Baptist church leadership... Hence his vulnerability to vpw/cult culture, eh? That website writing sure is careless, or lacks maturity, or indicates real mental health problems IMHO... And the gobbledygook in one of the "teachings" re: the ocean being poisonous since the flood and ya better stay away b/c a tsunami might hit at any time???????? Oh boy, paranoia for one... To share personally- don't know why I am crying right now... All of the tragedy around his life, mine and my family's, and so many others... I think I truly did love many and was honorably loved by friends... while staying very f'ed up from childhood-and-beyond trauma, etc. Oh well, for me some good did come, but/and it sure is painful to keep sifting thru the heart issues, separate the wheat from the chaff, and have the wounds exposed for healing. Nevertheless, ONWARD into lots of Awaiting Good. Best to you all!!

Thank you T-bone. Apparently I still need to hear these excellent insights to keep gaining sight, detaching, and healing; not easy. Humor does help, as in gallows humor and your great pix and captions earlier!!! You have a gift!! And so good about cult members susceptibilities, the trust-gaining processes, and vpw's strategies. Again thank you!

Very glad to pop into the cafe and find DWBH et all's explanation re: sources of doctrinal solidifyings in STF and Vince's church. At least I am glad that John S and Dan G spoke at the same gathering since 9 months previous they had split; indicates that they can be in the same room and not castigate each other... HowEVER, I totally agree w/ DWBH's et all's assessment of their motives for joining up.

OMG, this is doing me sooooo much good T-bone!! Well done!!!!!!!!!!! Reading to be continued...

So thoughtful and true Twinky, re: childhood, and Sarah being a victim in some respects. Yes, very sadly... And thank you so much for the Biblical truths, and how our loving Heavenly Father guides, corrects, explains, teaches, ETC!!! Will give your post more consideration soon!

OMGosh, T-Bone, thank you SO VERY MUCH for your amazing replies! I am blown away by the depth, heart, and connections you make/offer. I will reread all you wrote, and let it sink in. Perhaps it is all the more meaningful as my own daughter has suffered from tough mental health issues (depression, etc); thank you again for sharing all you did!!

Oh MY!! WordWolf, REALLY appreciate this!!! Have shared and thought on these insights!!!

Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...

Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.

Clarification- when I spoke of the "many sexual abusers", I was referring to ALL of the powerful men that the media has exposed with the #MeToo movement, in the Catholic and Protestant churches, etc.