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SOOOO appreciate your insights and depth folks!!! My contribution (and support-seeking!) here is sharing about the pushback I got on Facebook for challenging a recent post by a still-faithful-twi leader. Here is his original post that got lots of support: "I know Dr Wierwille learned alot from men like Bullinger and Kenyon. I never heard him present it as if it was his work. He presented it as it is in truth and fact, as God's." I posted this- "he did not credit most of what he taught re: receiving the holy spirit in PFAL to BG Leonard when BG had NOT given him permission to do so." Said I could document privately as I remember posters here sharing about vp basically stealing BG's class. I was accused of being "worldly and nitpicky", and there were many who gave evidence of him acknowledging his sources. You all have addressed these issues very well in the past, so am not looking for discussion on that. One particularly interesting thing was someone said that BG attended vp's retirement party; they have photos of BG w/ their daughters. HUH... I responded with "Love you all". and "am glad that GOD is and will be our judge!" Just sharing this here is very helpful, and I learned afresh about who to discuss what w/... Onward!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES! Thank you much!!! Well spoken. And I sooooo appreciate ALL of the aboves!!!

Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p: 1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power. 2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully. 3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them. 4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself. 5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time. Thank you reading!! Onward!

i.e. the Jesus Revolution movie cut...

Of interest? This is from Glenda Sue Morris' FB page posted Saturday, with 102+ comments and contributions! "The Doops and Heefners moved in together in the spring of 1967, and around that time, along with Ted and Liz Wise and Danny Sands, they started the Living Room mission in Haight-Ashbury and ended up moving in together in Novato in the House of Acts. I moved to CA in 1972, so this was before my time, but I met them all and learned from them. They soon took in Lonnie Frisbee, and he's the one that opened up the work in Southern California. It's my belief, based on the book by Pastor John A. MacDonald called "House of Acts," that the Wises, Doops, Heefners and Sands were ground zero of the Jesus Revolution." Then along came Dell and Nancy Dunca et ALL, eh? Someone thought that Donnie Fugit should make the movie cut...? It was just cool to see these possible connections, and time travel back to The Past! (I was in Idaho back-packing in the very early 70's, not so interested in hand-raising Jesus folks, but searching never-the-less! Somehow or other, I still see the hand of God in my life when I got involved w/ the way in VA a few years later...)

Agreed. Wow, the treatment of one another that Jesus SO highlighted... GREAT POINTS!!!

OK... Time for another round of processing after more general cult researching, and reading all of these latest great posts. Thank you all. Crying, journaling, feeling almost unbearable pain, then collecting myself, using my developing critical thinking, then giving voice to the me who wants to come out swinging!!! Onward!! (Comparing twi to Christianity Today's "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill", 25 hours of interviews, the last one of which was 2020 I think... Soooo helpful) Such a better job by some re: some repentance, some restoration, some closure, some genine following of Biblical guidelines!!!) Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!

Thought I would share about Christianity Today's podcast series, ending on 11/10/22-https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/. I am receiving a great deal of deliverance and understanding due to the depth and breadth of the exposure of a cult church, i.e. Mars Hill, with fascinating similarities and differences to twi; the responses of members and leaders; the consequent imploding and down falling; and the continuing cover up by the cult leader. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONNECTING HERE, ADMINS ET ALL!!!!!!!!!!

Well, another afternoon being spent very profitably at GSC, thank you ALL. Lots of copying and pasting in my journalings... A few pretty scattered responses if I may: 1) Quote from Skyrider, Aug 7, 2020- "John Summ3rville.........TFI 1975,76 (Total Fitness Institute in California) the only man (as far as I know) who stood up to wierwille." Well, I recall Ralph D recounting his confronting vp on his adulteries at a head hauncho meeting, but don't recall the year... and being summarily fired, put on house arrest, and shipped out. Or maybe that was Craig?? Hhhmmm... 2) T-bone's quote (sorry, can't find exact post now): "Just some quick thoughts here - with wierwille being an unabashed plagiarist and a control freak – maybe the creative process and creative people truly mystified him as something very foreign and outside his comfort zone – hence he would lower the boom...was it something that threatened him and his "leadership"? was he envious of creative people? Did he want to control the creativity of others?" Possibly! Either way, I agree that it fits that vp's power, control, and narcissistic hold were threatened with the great word in culture movements of the late 70's; I loved the hippie crafts at that ROA! Bought some Really Cool Stuff! I weep at what could have been... 3) I blindly followed cg in '88 along w/ lots of us in IN, so was really good (but tough) to re-evaluate POP (again!), and learn about the truths/various accounts re: Gartmore (and other locations). 4) Damn! re: vp disrespecting girls in that Way Home w/ his nakedness. More like terrorizing... Well, I just can't pull of being humorous about that behavior, as the actual spiritual impact of his unGodly disobedience (LOTS of verses) hits me. Serious spiritual and personal abuse IMO, while not compared to the seductions, rapes, druggings, etc! All for now, phew! Best to all!

Won't go into possible reasons for his choice to divulge those teen-age struggles, or his sharing about taking personality evals and the results...

So catching up here... In the About Me section of his website (which I can't find again right now) he only talks about his adolescent mental health issues of anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts; no football or Baptist church leadership... Hence his vulnerability to vpw/cult culture, eh? That website writing sure is careless, or lacks maturity, or indicates real mental health problems IMHO... And the gobbledygook in one of the "teachings" re: the ocean being poisonous since the flood and ya better stay away b/c a tsunami might hit at any time???????? Oh boy, paranoia for one... To share personally- don't know why I am crying right now... All of the tragedy around his life, mine and my family's, and so many others... I think I truly did love many and was honorably loved by friends... while staying very f'ed up from childhood-and-beyond trauma, etc. Oh well, for me some good did come, but/and it sure is painful to keep sifting thru the heart issues, separate the wheat from the chaff, and have the wounds exposed for healing. Nevertheless, ONWARD into lots of Awaiting Good. Best to you all!!

Thank you T-bone. Apparently I still need to hear these excellent insights to keep gaining sight, detaching, and healing; not easy. Humor does help, as in gallows humor and your great pix and captions earlier!!! You have a gift!! And so good about cult members susceptibilities, the trust-gaining processes, and vpw's strategies. Again thank you!

Very glad to pop into the cafe and find DWBH et all's explanation re: sources of doctrinal solidifyings in STF and Vince's church. At least I am glad that John S and Dan G spoke at the same gathering since 9 months previous they had split; indicates that they can be in the same room and not castigate each other... HowEVER, I totally agree w/ DWBH's et all's assessment of their motives for joining up.

OMG, this is doing me sooooo much good T-bone!! Well done!!!!!!!!!!! Reading to be continued...

So thoughtful and true Twinky, re: childhood, and Sarah being a victim in some respects. Yes, very sadly... And thank you so much for the Biblical truths, and how our loving Heavenly Father guides, corrects, explains, teaches, ETC!!! Will give your post more consideration soon!

OMGosh, T-Bone, thank you SO VERY MUCH for your amazing replies! I am blown away by the depth, heart, and connections you make/offer. I will reread all you wrote, and let it sink in. Perhaps it is all the more meaningful as my own daughter has suffered from tough mental health issues (depression, etc); thank you again for sharing all you did!!

Oh MY!! WordWolf, REALLY appreciate this!!! Have shared and thought on these insights!!!

Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...

Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.

Clarification- when I spoke of the "many sexual abusers", I was referring to ALL of the powerful men that the media has exposed with the #MeToo movement, in the Catholic and Protestant churches, etc.

Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later. (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.) I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"... But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be." Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)." I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.- I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated." The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen." Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine. To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!

Thank you SO much T-Bone!!! Will take time to reread your very thoughtful reply soon, and will check into viewing the movie. Blessings to you!

Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl. The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc. E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc. Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY! The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path... THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!

Thanks much Twinky!!! Great advice!

Appreciate this and You T-Bone!!