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Of interest to anyone? I just read a statement* re: JESUS "being the perfect interpretation (my emphasis) of the Bible"; the author uses Mathew 5:17-20 to discuss how the Old Covenant law was simply "an incomplete revelation of God's heart", and how the Pharisees' unhealthy interpretations of Scripture were WRONG. Jesus, on the other hand, came to fulfill/complete the OT Covenant, AND to "show the very heart of God, and how He wants his People to live in His Kingdom". Thus JESUS "confronts the very unhealthy teachings and interpretations of the law in His day by the religious elite" and is the chief interpreter of Scripture, "because the law points to HIM" and His teaching (interpreting) ministry. This was new for me! I had heard a respected ex-twi leader declare "Ah, the Holy Spirit is the Interpreter of Scripture!" But never Jesus. But now that I think about it, since the Comforter is come to lead us into all truth, and since Jesus is still alive and well, and leading and guiding us in perfect harmony w/ the Holy Spirit, it makes perfect sense!!!!!! This expands the Red Thread concept beautifully, I think! And confronts vp's doctrinal, practical, and horribly Pharisaical teachings on several different levels!! *from Spark by EJ Martone (my Assembly of God pastor)

All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Well also, HOW WONDEFUL IN MANY MANY WAYS!!!!!!!!!!! VERY BEST TO YOU AND YOURS UNTIL... WE ALL MEET AGAIN!!

Well, I was in Boston summer '82 only... But you might enjoy hearing names like Sue Watson, Michael Pulliam, and Michael, Uh oh, N?? Lost last name. Went into the 14th Corps... We all lived in the way home that Sue Watson coordinated...

Also checking into several resources in the Reddit link- Daniella Young's book, and a really good article! So appreciate these!

Thank you for articulating these things!!!

Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.

Appreciate your reply LOTS, Chockfull! Yes, observing and being a part of the various Christian assemblies functioning now often brings valuable freedom of choices, connections to the Body as a whole, ETCs as you pointed out! I left the Chris Geer group around 2009 after leaving twi in the late '80s, so didn't experience some of the specifics you mentioned. But What twi Became was so rooted in What It Already and Always Was that I am still pretty horrified that I was so influenced by vpw et all! Healthy horror I guess! Best to you!!

Picking up this thread after a looong search for the best thread pick up, hope I judged correctly enough! I am comparing the structure and teachings/inferences in the Assembly of God church I am now a partner in, w/ those of twi/vpw et al. The irony of vp lauding the early church model of church in the home, i.e a grassroots movement, and condemning later "organized" denominations that met in church buildings, really strikes me. (Especially in light of the current movement of many church-building-churches to emphasize small groups that meet in homes, as well as the large gatherings in the church building on Sunday.) He CLAIMED a decentralized free-flowing Spirit-led movemen t, whi ch it was in some key ways; but ALWAYS, he was to be honored as the Apostle Paul was, (claims to the contrary), and kept an iron grip on the power, money, psyches, and Biblical doctrines of twi. In CONTRAST, the Assembly of God folks (not that I have allegiance towards any particular denom), emphasize small groups, have a lead pastor VERY accountable to a local board, and have a central office somewhere in Indianapolis I assume, and I THINK a US headquarters? The Way Tree myth that elevated Jerusalem got implanted in my cultized brain, I am more fully realizing. The AOG church as a whole is structured much more like the 1st Century church in keyways, than twi ever was!!! Twi HEADQUARTERS WAS THE CHURCH BUILDING/physical location that ppl identified with and flocked to whenever possible, magnified 1000 times! Names like the Biblical Research Center, or WOW Auditorium didn't really change a THING IMO. Yes, human beings tend to ID with and attach to physical locations, especially where their hearts are drawn to God. But the concept that twi was the 1st Century church in the 20th, was PURE FICTION AND DECEPTION. (Sometimes I still long for the free flow of how twi grew, and I do love how the early church was apparently structured and flowed. Apparently the Gospel is moving beautifully in India with Sangat Bain's ministry which is based only on home churches, and has Zero Headquarters.) But right now, I am learning, growing, and worshipping in this local church which BTW, is connecting more and more w/ other churches in our town, YAY!) And am coming out of Cult Fog, and viewing the Evolution of The "Biblically-centered" Church from it's earliest days until now as something to learn from, honor, and feel a part of. Thank you GSC-ers for still being here!!

Will give it a listen, thanks!

Oh boy! Thank you for all of this Charity! And very interesting how movements evolve... We ALWAYS need to keep a watchful eye on human institutions, eh? I am now involved in an Assembly of God church pastored by a young fellow whose doctrinal positions I am coming alongside more and more. HowEVER, the doctrinal position I MOST appreciate there is that we can have a DIVERSITY OF DOCTRINAL POSITIONS (as well as political, ethnic, etc) re: secondary matters. Yes! Places for robust discussions, but no (ideally) place for narrow-mindedness, group think, conformity, etc. Sorry they are supporting Mike Bickle... Again, thank you for the input!!

LCM was a total puppet; evidence in VP & Me... Others things... I myself benefitted a lot from the way, but also suffered much personal destruction. I DO fantasize about joining the CA Jesus movement which I purposefully decided not to just b/c it seemed too charismatic; would have been MUCH MORE HEALTHY, DOCTRINALLY CORRECT I now believe, AND SAFE. Love John Wimber, Chuck Smith, the Vineyard movement. Oh well...

AMEN!!!!!!!!!

Just checking in as have been in absentia for awhile. Wow, I am Very Sorry for all you endured, but believe I quite understand... And another Wow! for your perseverance in healing, all you have processed, and how well you shared your story...

Thank you Rocky!!

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now. Anyone else remember this? AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!

THANK YOU Charity!!! Am now ready to check this out ASAP. Sorry so late in replying!!

OMG, THANK YOU THANK YOU T-BONE!!!!!!!!!! And preach it, teach it, EXPOSE IT!!!!!!!!!!! And been cruising around GSC and now cant remember if it was you or someone else who posted this below with a great explanation of how the way corpse was like this below for him/her... God will be the ultimate judge I say, but vp gave into the temptations to take advantage of me and numerous others in the ways so well enumerated above, and for that I personally hold him ACCOUNTABLE. (I think/hope the image will post.)

OMG, THANK YOU for this Charity... I say it with tears welling up, but that is EXACTLY what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! K, now I have to grieve all the years I disconnected from Jesus... This will take awhile to recover from, but oh well, what is new????!!!!

If I can share further FREEDOM AND HEALING HERE- I chose not to get involved w/ Jesus Movement folks in '72 b/c of my indoctrination/beliefs that I now remember came from Inter-Varsity CF's anti-Charismatic movement stance tht I was totallyl involved w/ during my college years. "You are raising your hands during singing? I am OUTTA HERE!" But a few years later I said YES to vpw's culture/doctrines/etc. Now reading/viewing lots re: the Jesus Movement, I can actually "time travel back" and "chose" that Jesus-centered path, and connect to what that would have been like in key ways. And this a.m. I had a deeply spiritual re-attaching to the God and Jesus that I lost during my 35 years w/ the way and Chris Geer folks... SOO much fear and confusion gone, since I had had bad church experiences, saw all the denom fighting, etc. And then expereinced some of the worst of the abuses in the way. AMAZING!!! Bedst to you all here!!!!!!!

Sorry took so long to reply! I very much appreciate learning about your and others' personal processings, and our Very Human Common Experiences and Ways of Dealing w/ Abuses, etc. So glad for your new freedom and fresh air!!!!!