OldSkool

I think the closest one can find in scripture where love and service could be confused is in the following verses where Jesus challenged Peter to feed the flock. Im sure there are other verses, but even in these verses loving Jesus was still expressed in keeping his commandments. The commandment in this case is repeated three times but its basically the same: Feed my sheep. So service can be an expression of love but service can also happen out of multiple motivating factors besides love. As you pointed out a slave serves at the threat of harsh consequences. So service in and of itself is nothing without love 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Give my body to be burned reminds me of Romans 12:1 where we present our bodies a living sacrifice to Christ which is our reasonable service. You can serve without love so service in and of itself is not necessarily an expression of love. John 21:15-17 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Forgive me if Im a little slow trying to rub a couple braincells together to understand...can you elaborate a little? Thx!

Hey, theres windows to clean...

It helps to keep 2 Peter in mind in this context as well. 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Thats not what it says in scripture. AmI missing the book of Mike? Service can be an expression of love but service can also be performed out of strife and vainglory..the look at me and how great I am attitude expressed by wierwille and his minions. God defines love as obedience to his commandments.

Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility. First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says: 1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you) Acts 1:8,9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. --> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important. John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand --> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back? 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. --> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all! --> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled: Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. --> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” --> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body. Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, --> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul. Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. --> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend. I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous

Ahhh..just like the pharisees and the oral traditions of men that Jesus Christ confronted on the gospels. Thanks for confirming that

Logical progression based on your choice of words. If it's Christ behind my Nikes and sport coat and I if I replace jesus Christ and if I am acting as though I am Christ then I am becoming a fake Jesus.

Hold the truck up....TWI teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ...what new doctrine is this where we take the place of the absent Christ? How many more ways are you seeking to replace our Lord and savior, there Mike. So here you are again changing your position and moving the goal posts yet again.

For the record, the Starbucks Jesus is a concept you brought to the table...setting up a strawman attack on Starbucks Jesus doesn't prove your point, it actually shows how desperate you REALLY are to make wierwilles false doctrines fit with scripture.

Burden of proof is on mike, but this type of stuff is one of many compelling reasons mike has no credibility. So Christ is absent and we replace him. Not we are witnesses and point the way to the risesn saviour. But we become Christ so we can leverage power to get stuff.

Cringe worthy to say the least. These yay-hoos are still running saying "Its not about you". When I was in-residence, they were saying that stuff to the point we were repeating that mantra as "its not about me"......what in the actual eff does that mean anyway....egads....

Well, if wierwille, mike, and radio theater say its so then it must be...

True dat. For me, ditching the fundamentalist glasses gave me a brand new perspective where I could actually enjoy just reading scripture.

To be clear, I have faith that the records in scripture are true. There are several records in Acts where healings happened publicly and there was no denying it for those present. I could have been more clear in saying I was referring to those, I never meant that every record in scripture would have a person on standby that could attest to the miracle. What I will say again and standby and I will word it a little clearer. If wierwille, for example, had a legitimate healing ministry then there should be people that can come out and say "I was healed" and have a testimony to back the claim, preferably with a release from their Dr showing that they are healed. You and I are likely in different camps (so to speak) when it comes to God and scripture. I still believe the Bible contains the Word of God. Not everyone believes that and Im fine with that as well. But in the case of the way international, they make bold claims that they are fully instructing people to operate all nine manifestations. So there should be ample, verifiable, miracoulous healings to accompany the claim. That hasnt been my experience at all with them. Secular history may or may not support claims made in scripture and Im fine with that because I dont necessarily depend on secular sources to validate scripture.

Kinda hypocritical of st vic considering he made his own counterfeit with the 1942 promise and snow on the pumps in September type stuff...what's the difference? I don't see a problem when false prophets disagree....they were both lying anyway.

No...I believe that's possible. Wierwille made many such alterations and even had books published to support his error.

Bet!

I agree so much as said experiences aren't verifiable. If you say you healed a man then I should be able to talk to that man about the healing, logistical issues aside. There was a very open pattern in the gospels and Acts where healings, miracles and such happened publicly and were verifiable, heck dang nearly indisputable. Wierwille lacks such witness.

One of the best posts I have read in quite a while. Thanks Bolsh!

Your defense mechanisms are working in overdrive. I never met wierwille so I have nothing to like or dislike, never knew the man. What I attack is his false persona and the decades long cover-up to hide his ACTUAL crimes and malfeasance. That which is crooked cannot be made straight. So while wierwille very well may have repented on his deathbed or before of his sins or not...and I dont care about that one way or another because thats between him and Jesus Christ. His legacy and doctrines are fair game and the fruit left behind is putrid. You are back to saying wierwille was a great man of God because Mike Almighty says so. Your credibility is nill on account of posts just like this. But please keep posting such ridicoulous garbage. You serve as a repellant for anyone who might get caught in wierwilles web of lies. I wish I had read your posts before giving my life to the way international but GSC didnt exist back then.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. Judging from the context (my point of view is not all encompassing) I would say he is referring to the group of Apostles who were with Jesus during his ministry to Israel as well as the later addition of Paul. Given the context is saying we have not cunningly devised fables because that is exactly what the religous leaders all across the synagogues accused them of. They said that Jesus disciples stole away his body by night for example: It would be fair to speculate that this was not the only lie told against the apostles to make the apostles appear as liars. They made known the power and coming of Jesus Christ is referring to Jesus coming to Israel and then being rejected by his own. Yet they made Jesus Christ known through signs miracles and wonders as recorded in the book of Acts. Again, I think it's a fair assumpumption to speculate that the apostles did much more than recorded in Acts, where Acts is a summation and really just the tip of the ice berg. God revealed to Peter and the others at the transfiguration Jesus Christs true majesty, that same majesty he is clothed in to this very day. So the made known happened in quite a few ways as you noted several. They preached in the temples and synagogues and really wherever they went. They circulated epistles as they were revealed by Jesus Christ to his apostles. They had the Old Testament that pointed to the coming Messiah where Peter and the others literally reasoned amongst in the synagugues that this Jesus is the long awaited Messiah. Their witness is still reverberating to this very day.