OldSkool

Wait...so the contents of a book can only cause a personal relationship with the author if the words are God breathed. Ya.

Man I'm not gonna touch that one with a ten foot pole...though I would likely touch the lead singer a little....nm...I'm married lemme quit being a arf arf.

True dat...I had a personal relationship with L. Ron Hubbard when I read Dianetics many moons ago. We got along great.

Oh, when I was in-res wierwille was pretty much deified. We were constantly told of his exploits and hardships and all he did for us.....ya....so it still is his and in his honor and memory. The mindless borg that the way corps produces would make vic proud I believe.

Definately not. It's what the professor did when mike tried to bring pflap into the mix...my speculation anyway...just like I speculate he was bullied by way corps and now blames and cant stand anything way corps, not that I blame him.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Scripture never alludes to anything ever taking Christ's place but you can enjoy your rut.

Ya, right. But your dishonest enough to discuss it in at least two other threads and then say the topic is over.

So the Word takes the place of God and Christ..ok...so were clear now.

He didnt wrap it up for you. The topic is still under discussion, but apperantly involving Raf (which I welcome) is enough for you to avoid any further discussion because the information you provide CANNOT stand scrutiny.

I agree with everything you stated. My point was that imitation is not the only way children learn: they are not limited to imitation. Its only one piece of the puzzle, so to speak. I dunno...its just me...as a parent I shudder everytime mike talks about anything having to do with children. There is so much more that goes into child raising besides letting them imitate us. It is vitally important, but just one tool in the box.

I could care less if you respond or not but its weak to come over here and try to continue the conversation without responding to the conversation in progress thats on topic.

Children will imitate but that is not how they learn. It could be one way that they learn but not how they learn. Types of Learning Styles These are the four main types of learning styles: Visual (learn through seeing) Auditory (learn through hearing) Tactile (learn through touch) Kinesthetic (learn through doing and moving) https://abilitypath.org/ap-resources/childrens-learning-styles/ While, imitation could fit into anyone of these it is not required for children to learn.

Oh....scared of Raf... Please do something besides BS. Bottom line is you havent responded in any meaningful and the conversation is going stong with Raf/modcat5 on the absent Christ thread...but you ran off claiming some kind of victory as your petty betty manner is.

Wheres your response mike? Oh other than saying God is a liar because he deceived Peter and the others with a hologram of Jesus.

Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility. First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says: 1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you) Acts 1:8,9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. --> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important. John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand --> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back? 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. --> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all! --> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled: Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. --> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” --> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body. Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, --> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul. Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. --> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend. I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with. ------------------------------------------ Continuing onwards: 1/25 There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear: Acts 4:24-31 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty. Acts 7:55-60 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent. Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle. Acts 9:3-8 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. Now with Ananias Acts 9:10-17 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so. Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus. Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period. Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision? Acts 10:1-7 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. 7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household. Acts 10:9-16 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ. I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills. Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia. Acts 16:9,10 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision. Acts 18:9-11 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. 11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul. Acts 19:11-13 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. 13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

No we dont they are dead. Obviously when the letter was penned it was written by somebody alive and addressed to people who were alive at the time. Have you forgotten that your fader in da verd said the Word is an eternal now? Furthermore, I have quoted that verse copiously.

Also, I have a long list of scriptures primarily from Acts showing Jesus Christ himself personally interacting with a variety of people in Acts. You refuse to discuss them on the absent Christ thread but come over here to derail this mess of a thread even further. I'll say it: scripture does direct us to a personal relationship with Christ. I listed a bunch of scriptures yet you won't respond to them. Once more you show your true colors as a bullshonta artist.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

To be clear I post concepts on GSC/doctrinal to hash out my understanding of the doctrine not to convince anyone else to shift to my beliefs or point of view. There are doctrinal points we will likely always disagree on and that's fine. I can love and respect others if they disagree or believe differently. I expect you guys to take to the concept as if it was a pinata ... Poke as many holes in it as can be poked. I'm here for that reason.

Yes, the goal posts have shifted. My original post is the only point I was trying to make. Christ is never replaced. Christ's function has changed and in that function he isn't absent. If he's absent to people individually then to that person that doesn't have a relationship with him then he is absent.

I agree that there may not be a connection between this case and TWI. It is of note that there is a somewhat scattered trail of suicides that were related to TWI, though I hesitate to link this one.

Egads, I didnt realize you lived through that mess! My post was aimed at the parents of the kids doing this sort of thing. Its approproate to see the experiences of the kids at times, thanks for sharing! They shared this stuff on way corps meetings to push the corps into doing the same type of stuff with their kids. Thats totally effed up that you were made to push all things TWI while on campus. Thats a lot of extra pressure in addition to the lecture/test educational model of most any university. Stressful to the hilt.

Way kids and Bowling Green have a long history. Many, many HQ kids (which means top leadership's kids) attend bowling green. At one time, 2000s, there were (I dont know about today) multiple fellowships on campus ran by way kids. They would also apply for RA positions, which many of them received. https://www.bgsu.edu/residence-life/employment-opportunities/ResidentAdvisor.html These @$$hats would work on staff where they were basically poor enough to put their families on medicaid and would suck up any grant out there they could get their hands on for the poor and use it for their own kids. While many of the parents doing this stuff had bachelors, et. al. degrees and professional careers before working on staff where they could've easily figured out how to get their kids through school without leeching public resources for those who are truly disadvantaged and not disadvantaged by choice of working on staff. Granted, a lot of the kids would earn scholarship and were academically capable in their own right. I dont want to take anything away from the kids efforts and such because many of them did earn some decent scholarships that were hard to attain. The thing that used to aggravate the heck outta me is the way international would hold up their own kids as examples of debt free college kids that they sent to BGSU on GRANTS for the poor as if that sort of thing is something your average middle class, abunbantly sharing way follower could pull off. The vast majority of the way international's followers arent poor enough to swoop up the same grants and such staff kids could qualify for because of their parent's low income. Anywho. The RA positions were coveted because of the perks listed on their website and the position also gave them access to the community with a position of influence used to witness and push all things TWI.

Im a Living Color fan from waay back...both TV show and band...check this one out....T-Bone: lemme know if you dig the bass line.

Well, yeah, theres that. Its been about 15 years since I read them so ... yeah...figures...