OldSkool

Yessir!!!!

Ok, I could have done this differently with a multi-quote instead of several posts...Moderators please refrain from throwing rocks at me...lol..my apologies. Dude -- this is one of the best post I've come across in a long time. Thanks!!

Your post reminds me of why I started looking into the concept to begin with. The way talks so much about the accomplished works of Jesus Christ but otherwise they have nothing to do with him. He's just someone who did a job for God so we could claim all the stuff we need and live more abundantly. Hes the name sake on the end of a prayer and otherwise, according to TWI he's chillaxin until God says it's go time. Complete bollux. I was thinking last night though on Twinky post on the gospels and something clicked for me. Thanks Twinky. So the way I'm thinking about things at the moment is the gospels show Jesus Christ life and ministry to Israel where he went to his own, was rejected, etc. That part of the gospels is VITAL to understand because it's part of the basis for salvation to begin with. However, we are told to live as he lived, to walk as he walked, etc. The various epistles show what was given in the new birth, that those born again of God's spirit are a new creation in Christ and we definately are told how to walk in the spirit, etc. The church epistles are extremely important because they reveal the mystery, etc. But...where else can anyone go to LEARN how Jesus Christ lived....The Gospels! Of course we aren't required to don a tunic and sandals in our quest to live like him...remember we don't know Christ after the flesh any longer. So what are we to do? Learn to recognize the spirit behind how he walked and emulate those things he did from feeding the hungry to healing the sick to basically just loving people the way God would want us two. Those two laws the mosaic law was compressed into - Love God with all your heart sould mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. The gospels show us how he lived and show a pattern for us to emulate in our walk, thus it all comes full circle.

That's been my experiences with the way international at all levels from Joe Believer to the BOD. Kinda sad really because they go around with a decent amount of huff n puff but have little to show for it. I was no different when I was in TWI.

I think you're on to somethin!....

Awesome post. Never considered Paul and his relationship with Jesus Christ in this light. You got me to thinking that he set out for Damascus supposing only that Jesus Christ was a false messiach and his followers needed to be dealt with. Yet it was on that road to Damascus where Jesus Christ appeared to him and asked him why he was persecuting him? I'd say that Paul got to know Jesus Christ rather well after that initial encounter. Judging from your posts I'd say you have an excellent understanding of spiritual matters. And I have gotta say that TWI loves to say what God can and cannot do. I've heard so many limitations placed on God Almighty during my time in the way or saying what God would have done - as if they know. I remember rolling my ankle playing ball before going out witnessing with way disciples the following day and I couldn't go. So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

Great points Twinky, T-Bone. Wierwille was a mess, and it quickly becomes obvious that he was speaking on topics he really did not understand. Wierwille shows his true ignorance by how he used to slam Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as being insignificant. Those books are vital in understanding who our Lord is and how he lived, and what he did in his ministry to Israel. You really cannot have a complete picture of Jesus Christ without the gospels. When one steps back and considers the gospels along with the book of Acts and the church epsistles then a more complete picture of who Jesus Christ is today and what he is doing today comes into view. In the book of Acts Jesus Christ is interacting with people all throughout the entire book - thus showing that he isn't absent but is functioning as the head of the Body, etc. He isn't present on the earth in a flesh and bones body either. I think that's the part that tripped up wierwille and a very telling trip because I don't think he could understand spiritual matters to the degree that he said of himself. Jesus Christ has been changed at his resurection. In the same manner we shall also be changed. I have no idea what he has been changed into other than the few records showing him after his resurection. When you consider that God has given everything into Jesus Christ's hands and that he functions as God's right hand man, in a similar manner as Joseph did Pharoah, and Christ is the head of the Body I would say that he is quite busy and in no way absent. He has simply been changed and promoted to second in command. I would say Jesus Christ is quite busy. 2 Corinthians 5:16“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”

Very interesting view point on enablers in this context. Who would have had the guts to confront Wierwille on his drinking? They would have been fired anyway. Good point.

Hi..my name is Oldskool and I'm an alcoholic and Im stone cold sober. Wierwille's line of reasoning resontates to this old alcoholic because us alcoholics love to rationalize our addiction, like all addicts. Wierwille is full of bullshido. In this quote he rationalizes his own alcoholism by rationalizing a difference between a drunk and an alcoholic. Alcoholics do not drink just one way. Meaning all of us do not just drink ourselves out every night. Many of us are binge drinkers, and many more are binge drinking, functioning alcoholics. And I think that's exactly what wierwille was -- a binge drinking, functioning alcoholic. He at least copped to being a drunk though...he just hadn't hit rock bottom yet.

Yes. They still teach that. The connection being alcoholics have an insatiable thirst when it comes to alcohol...which is true for an alcoholoic that still drinks. The concept of drinking up the nile and roaming waterless places are all part of the TWI logic leap.

It seems you have taken some very logical steps with wierwille's illogic and rationalization.

Somehow in wierwilles convoluted logic adultery was a spiritual sin because people in the OT were "whoring after other gods" ... yeah...I get it....obviously it's figurative language except it fit wierwille's predatory lifestyle to twist scripture in this manner because it gave him an obvious out...at least in his mind. He taught others the same...LCM for example...though he's not the only one. Wierwille had it all figured out when it came to bonking someone else's wife or a young single vulnerable corps damsel. Keep it in the lockbox...as long as you commit adultery and do it in believing there is no sin. Don't tell others because they aren't "spiritually" mature enough to handle it...it get's worse the further down the rabbit hole you go.

Yeah...I forgot about that one...lol....

Thanks!

What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.

I think if it has to do with what the way wants someone to do they attach "spiritual" to the concept. Spiritual partner comes to mind with the way corps...theres nothing spiritual about sending a ministry money to take care of someone while they are in twi custody.

I think that's a fair assessment unless someone can provide some sort of history that makes it all make sense. Skyrider's posts seem to hit the nail on the head.

- What does it mean? - Im not realy sure if there is an exact meaning, biblical or otherwise. In practice a spiritual goal can be anything from working to build scriptural concepts into your life to going way corps. I can say for sure though that the way corps use that term to push people into participation of all things TWI. It's really a bait and switch tactic so you end up putting the way international first in your life. - Is it exclusice to Corps? - Definately not, but spiritual goals can be used to corral people into the way corps. - How are these goals measured and tracked? - Well, there really isn't a set method. Basically, it comes down to what ever your leadership wants to measure and track. - Does this go back to Loy? Victor? The Bible? Who coined this phrase? - I am not sure so I defer to others on this one. When I got involved in 1996 I can remember spiritual goals being pushed down my throat right from the end of my first foundational class. Im going out on a limb here, but I really think the phreasology and concept have everything to do with drumming up people to participate in all things TWI. Think programs but definately not limited to programs. Your spiritual goal coud be to attend the advanced class. It's really an open ended application with the least common denominator being participation in TWI.

We were pests.

One of my corps brothers witnessed to the seed of the serpent lady while going door to door in Gunnison....lol...she was visiting a relative and really didn't have much of an interest in coming to a fellowship...geee....I wonder why that was?....lol

Respondind to both posts but not in turn. way international leadership still behaves the exact same way. They say it's out of respect for the word that an individual teaches and that's why they stand. Bottom line is way international leadership - particularly the way corps want to be served and they demand it. The higher up the foodchain you get the more protocol is demanded from followers. Now, with HQ they have streamlined some of the standing...at the noon meal for example --- staff don't have to stand up when eating everytime someone comes to the lectern. The head table...geez....what a fiasco. The headtable servers have their own little doctrines they use to do special favors for the directors. Of course they say it's to bless the directors for all they do for us...or some such drivel. I had to sit at the head table for an entire week everytime I emceed the noon meal when I was cabinet. It's one of the stuffiest, fake environments I have ever been a part of. And it was nothing to get a call from Rosalie reproving me for the slightest offence. Chockfull really hits the nail on the head calling them pharisees. They do prefer the cheif seats and special adoration. They are not servants but are there to be served. As late as 1999, my candidate year for the way corps, I was given military books to read. Books on Chesty Puller, et. al. They weren't required reading but suggested to me by local leadership so I could get a grasp on the pretend military lifestyle of active way corps....and a suggestion is paramount to a command. I was taught that very early on in my short way corps career. Bottom line (from my personal experience) is the way international has a caste system and the further up the ladder you are able to climb the more you can demand to be served and salaamed by followers. The way corps are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met. I was egotistical as all get out when I was way corps too. That's something that was taught by example in my training and a very undesireable character trait I have had to work to overcome.

That would have been very much appreciated and inspiring. But...her true colors shone through.

That BS started with VP and I can't speak to how much of a demand he put on his followers simply because I wasn't involved in TWI until 96. However, the following example shows how insane all of it became over time: I had been running snow removal crews at HQ since 4:30am and it was a particularly bad storm so we were battered from the elements as well as the long hours. I took a break around 1:30-2pm in the afternoon...literally my first time stopping since 4:30am. I went into my office and was sitting there with a shell shocked feeling I was trying to shake, when Rosalie walked into my office unexpectedly. I was shocked she was standing there and I greeted her very respectfully but forgot to stand. Before she soke to me she motioned me out of my chair and onto my feet before she would even talk. I think that about says it all.