OldSkool

You really didn't.

So.....I ask this to you as a Christian --- Im qualifying it this way because some here aren't Christian and I would have 0 expectation that they would have trust/faith in anything Biblical for whatever reason. I respect that boundary. But for you Mike - you are Christian...same as me. Do you really believe that God almighty is incapable of bringing his will together in written form so that those who want may know him and his ways? Personally, I think wierwille took what fit his lusts for money and position from whatever source he could, including gathering from known occultist like Albert Cliffe, and called it the word of God and claimed his stolen materials were gathered by yeeeaaars of research. That's verifiable truth. However, please answer the question above, and I will restate it for clarity. Do you really believe that God almighty is incapable of bringing his will together in written form so that those who want to may know him and his ways?

Add plagairaism to that list too...lol

Oh...but...but....he didn't plagaraize he just collated all the material into one class to rule them all, claimed ownership, and copyrighted them. Dont ya know God sent him out to stea...I mean collect all these works together so we wouldn't have to? It's revealing that when he was called out he didn't say that God told him by revelation to use Bullinger's material as his own. Instead he acted like it was all a REMARKABLE COINCIDENCE. Why didn't he speak up and explain the nature of his ministry was to glean what he could that hadn't been known for 2000 years...material he gleaned from existing sources...Im kind of being a jerk here to show how ridicoulous Mike's argument is that plagarisim is ok for VPW to do because it all belonged to God anyway.

Mike - the concepts you are talking about from PFLAP are really easy to understand and I spent years working all of those books even during my time in-residence where I was studying around 30 hours a week or more. Im not getting it wrong, I disagree with you and PFAL especially. I wasn't exposed to Craig's shenanigans because the year I first went to HQ was the year he was fired. I am of the opinion that there was a significant movement of God underway when vpw stepped and co-opted other's ministries as his own, took them over, started keeping the money, etc.

This ^^^^ right here!!!

The difference is, Mike, all of the people you mentioned actually CONFESSED their sins and God was faithful to forgive. Wierwille hid his sins, justified them with scripture, and used the congregation as his sexual playground. But you are ok with that, which basically equates to a tacit agreement that wierwille was ok to have sex with young women from the congregation.

And that is the crux of it - nowhere in the Bible does it say anything takes Christ's place and no place ever is he referred to as absent - which carries the connotation of missing, lacking, not at an expected place, etc.

Your absent Christ is another Jesus. Have fun with that.

This quote is from Mike...not Wayside. Mike God gave nobody a free pass. Jesus Christ paid the price...a rather hideous price...and based on that sacrifice we are declared righteous by our identification with Christ. Vpw got a lot of splaining to do on that day.

It's not the same concept.

They still teach it too. Same with great principle etc.

From that point of view I agree and that makes sense. Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and physically represent him in a flesh and blood world. My disagreement came about with the statement "the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ" - that's the issue at hand. That statemtent indicates that Christ is absent in the lives of believers and that void is filled by reading the word or something...

You don't wnat to discuss it because the truth is too ugly. wierwille is held to a higher standard because he was a leader in the church. Once you take that job then your behavior is to eximplify and overflow Christs fullness and love. I don't quite see that with ole vic and his sexual predations where he counseled his victims to just keep it the adulterous affair in the lockbox so they didn't cause anyone else to stumble. And he stole intellectual property, was a drunk...and so on. That's not just looking at someone's old nature that's bringing to light what the way international has spent millions to hide. Theres a difference. I find it amusing though that the greatest believer since the apostle paul, victor wierwille, the man who was second to none according to himself, the man that God almighty chose to bring hidden light to our day and time....the greatest man of God to walk the earth darn near since Jesus Christ....I find it amusing that you hold him to such a low standard when it comes to sin. He was the greatest unless his sinful ways are exposed and then well...ahh...it's just his old man nature. When leadership in the Church sin and sin against the congregation they should confess the sins publicly to the congregation and come clean to the point of using their old sins to help relate to people struggling with the same problems....but your idol never did that...yeah that would actually be wierwille being the man he knew to be. He knew he was wrong and did nothing about it until he regretted it on his deathbed.

Obviously you haven't read the thread or tracked the concepts presented, or even considered them in any meaningful way. I won't respond to you with long thoughtful posts, others have done that and it goes nowhere with you Mike. I will leave you with this verse. 2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Theres people here on GSC who are agnostic/atheist and I tell you this: I can completely respect that position and their right to choose to believe as they do and I have no judgement towards them simply because they are honest and it's obvious they are working through life and trying to sort out what it's all about. I can relate because Im on the same path. But you are a Christian who's head is victor paul wierwille and not Jesus Christ, who is the true head of the Body of Christ. That's a sad state of affairs there Mike. It's obvious Christ is absent from your life because of the hact that you believe and act as though he is. You, via wierilles corrupt anti-christ doctrines, make him absent.

Cool!!! Thanks!

Cool, that sir is your god given right!

Raf, I don't think anyone has the right to judge your journey through life based on your beliefs and wherever they stand. There's times in my life where I was into the occult, theres times in my life where I had sold out my life to TWI -an abusive cult, thers a sizeable time in my life where I didn't believe anything except there was a bottle for me at the liquor store. Then there's me today - yes I am Christian but I am not sure anyother label belongs because Im simply not affiliated with any organization or group, clique, or whatever. Im just a guy like you, or anyone else for that matter, who is on this same journey through life. More than you will ever know, I love and respect your honesty and candor. Not my place to judge you or treat you differently because you believe differently from me. It is my job to love you as myself and I like my boundaries respected. Therefore, I will respect your boundaries and love you just the same. Cheers!

Well, I can say this much for your request. It will likely never happen. TWI isn't staffed with experts in their fields, instead they are staffed with AC grads and corps. Some of those jobs are handled by capable people most aren't. There really isn't a lot of cutting edge technology at the way. Last I knew they were still using an AS400 mainframe....maybe thats changed now, but you have to understand that Rosalie hated computers because she considered them dirty communication. That's probably a euphamistic way of saying that all their dirty laundry is on the interweb. Craig hated the internet because its here he was first exposed. Policy changes. Please understand that the way international had some exremely awful and illegal policies in place - pregnancy policy for example. If they were to come out and acknowledge that was wrong they would get the everloving heck sued out of them because of the damages caused to people who were hurt by it all. Policies have been silently dropped for years or they wouldn't have survived this long past the Allen lawsuit but they will never publicly admit why or even that it's changed.

Well, for me at least, I have dissected almost every major TWI doctrine both Biblically and historically. I've found that some things with TWI stand - I mean it can't all be based on lies although a little leaven leavens the entire lump. I have tossed a lot of TWI doctrines because they simply aren't true. Christians should tithe, law of believing, administrations, etc. I am a more comitted Christian than I have ever been but that's because my faith is in Christ and God Almighty and not a 501-c3 with a self appointed MOGFODAT. Also would like to say that tossing the fundamentalist glasses I used to wear helped immensely - that and understand how the Bible came into existance. And let me say this - MIKE - I HAVE gone through PFAL and wierwilles other writings with a fine tooth comb. They all fail on several factors that have been discussed on GSC ad nauseum.

Here ya go. Mike, I would encourage you to go check the reference list when you work the material. I purposely used a wide variety of sources. Please, if possible, refrain from logic fallacies (straw man, red herring, etc) and let's deal with the information only. The sources could be fundamentalist, could be Muslim, could be secular. Im speaking particularly on the historic points I bring up in this context. It's verifiable history that (for example) E.W. Kenyon was into the occult and mixed those doctrines into Christianity. Please refrain from spamming up this thread with law of believing stuff as I will only respond to this in doctrinal. This

Bumped for Mike.

I didn't think you were interested.

Just can't get away from the insults and accusations can you. I understand perfectly well what I am reading and where the ideas came from. PFAL has a decent amount of occultism mixed into it via the law of believing. Now, if you are interested in why I am saying this I can provide a boat load of information for further study. If you just want to hurl insults then it just shows you have nothing else in your defence of wieriwlle in the face of the truth presented from multiple sources. Lemme know your interest and if you would like to read more about what I am saying I will provide links...don't have time atm cause Im heading out to a family dinner. Cheers!

Now flip the script and imagine how bad Mike would freak out if someone plagaraized wierwille and took his materials, rebranded them, claimed ownership, and claimed God almighty had chosen him over everone else incliding wierwille over the past 2000 years to teach all of it because it hadn't been known since the apostle Paul.