Bishop

Pure genious dude. I feel exactly the same way about most of this.

Welcome. That sucks, I can relate.

The two new books that h put out are supposed to be the written form of the first part of his advanced class. Something like "in the steps of patriarchs, kings, and prophets." As best as I could see they emphasis the importance of men of God and being a man of God. I heard they're very well written though.

john lynn

Ya, the important thing to remember with this one is that TWI wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Christian Church. Wierwille was trained in the Christian church. He learned to preach in a Christian College. The works that he taught from came from Christians. Basically TWI only existed because it used the bible to manipulate people. If it weren't for the mainstream Christian church it never would have came into being.

. . . . you're minister explains that he almost stopped to help a person stranded on the side of the road but decided not to because the devil was merely trying to keep him from coming to a bible meeting. . . . ah yeah. it's cuz you weren't preaching the word. you gots to bring the conversation back to the word. <_<

. . . . you go to a bible study only to hear the leader of the study viciously rant about other Christians for an hour. After the meeting everyone is blown away and agrees, "He's definitely a prophet."

I met a believer that bought VP's motorcyle on Ebay. Might be related.

Have you checked the collaterals? They might shed some light on what this word means in this context . . . Maybe a literal according to usage or something . . . . :P

I don't think God being good and him prohibiting us from fully utilizing the mind that he gave us is compatible.

Feel better?

Ya, i think that religious belief should go something like this, "From what i've seen and what makes sense, this is probably what's true and i'm sticking to it."

Ya, it was like if you figured out that the ruse you became an unbeliever, and we all know the meaning of that. This made you constantly suspicious of your own reason

Ya, i watched that last night. It's really good. I like what he said about being addicted to the cult. I can see that a lot in people that are still in. They have to keep hearing the teachings and researching. So sad.

tough stuff.

Thanks for the kind reply! How long have you been out?

Ya. I don't even KNOW he's alive. He could have sold his ministry and left the country or something. The money would keep coming in . . . .

The people in those fellowships need him to believe. The doctrine is propped up by know that men of God did the research. No Chris Geer, No Word.

Dear Penworks, You bring up a lot of really insightful and valid points. I do agree with you that there is a better existence for many than the Way and it's offshoots (or fundamentalism in general). I do not agree with you that the TWI/offshoot experience is simply wrong or bad. I think that the best life someone can live is just to be happy, love others, and help man kind. I don't believe that there is one simple right formula in life that produces good. It is not as simple as just finding the truth and then living by it. You see, the truth can be very elusive, and truth can be very depressing. A person can live their whole life believing lies (we all do) or even being part of an evil organization and still be happy, love others, and help mankind. In fact, I think every church is based on a hodgepodge of truths, half-truths, and lies. Since being part of something bigger than ourselves is necessary for most people to be happy, i don't think it's as easy as saying that if people left the way they'd be happy. Most people would have been part of some other organization that possessed many bad attributes too. Take the catholic church, for instance. They also require adherence to prescribed dogma. IMHO, the catholic dogma tends to breed guilt and shame. Many people may find more peace and happiness following the catholic church, with its lies, truths, and half-truths than they would in the Way. Other Catholics found more value in TWI and were very glad to leave their church for the Way. Furthermore, I know believers who left a life of crime, hatred, and despair to follow TWI. Sure there could have been better alternatives for these people, but I don't think that we should discount the efforts of those in the Way who helped people find a BETTER life, even though it may not have been the BEST life. As for me, I spent my whole life in "the Word". I can't rightly say that I would have been better off without the "Word" and the "Ministry" (whether TWI or the many other fellowships that taught the Word. I can pick out doctrines and practices that I really hated. It's been great to share those frustrations here. I can't renounce my whole experience as bad though, it's shaped my entire experience in life and i've gotten a lot out of going to fellowship. I've grown closer to family members because of our common faith. I've been able to meet a huge range of people at fellowships and I was able to practice compassion and charity to a lot of people. Likewise, I've received unconditional acceptance and love. I can't count how many times believers have helped me move or given me great advice. I've learned to work in small groups while witnessing. I've learned to give speak in public at days in the Word and advances. I've learned to control my thinking in a renewed mind classes (no not WC's). I've learned to overcome fear by facing problems. I've learned to deal with rejection while witnessing. So, I'm looking forward to moving on with my life, but I can't say that I would have been better off without my experience as a Way believer. After all, my choice might have been between being a druggie and being a "believer". I wouldn't have been able to make a clean cut with dogmatic nutjobbery if I hadn't been gone through the whole TWI experience. I'm glad to be moving on, but I know that I'm leaving a lot of great memories in the past. The "ministry" is part of my heritage and I'm ok with that. I guess I'm an unbelieving believer now . . . . Take Care, Isaac

I never could rationalize taking it since I knew the doctrine and heard the class was very boring. I've had roommates, family members, etc who have though. It's just PFAL except a little more biblical and a lot less exciting.

$50 a year? hmmmm. . . . something doesn't seem right bout that.

Craig was hilarious . . . homo purge . . . that sounds like a sex act . . har har.

Chris just provides the classes and his new advanced class books. Most people who are in those circles haven't seen him at all since the way. Maybe around 2002 our fellowship tried to run one but they required us to start a registered corporation so the checks could be made out to a business checking account. They also have special forms that you have to fill out with a waiver. They give you gold stars in the front of your syllabus every time you do WIGP and you need so many to take their intermediate class. I don't know all the details because we didn't go through the trouble. I heard that for a while the Chicago area couldn't run classes after Rev. Guiarini died because no one was ordained . . . It's clear that he uses the class as a means of keeping all the groups that run it in line. They aren't all the same organization though. Also, the groups that run his classes are into WC's green and black book (which are actually pretty decent if you're into that sort of thing). He's not part of the same group though. In all the WIGP groups there's people who have been kicked out or told they couldn't run a fellowship for some reason or another. There's no shouting or sexual abuse, but they tend to be very persuasive and have a way of keeping everyone on exactly the same page. It doesn't feel like there's anyone in charge when you're in the groups but some how the men of God all agree on everything . . .

So sorry about your friend. Hope everything works out.

On Guard. I renew my mind so i don't ever get possessed.