brainfixed

so here are spome questions that might help make the subject i started this dicussion about to be more clear, and i will use specific examples of what people have already written on this discussion themselves, so it's going to be questions about these people's specific examples who have written them on this discussion, but it's not personal in that i am not expecting any answer at all and i am not judging anybody or saying anybody is "right" or "wrong", but i would rather that all readers would just stop and think about the questions as pertains to the cycle of abuse and not as an affront to themselves or their memories or anything like that. please. and these are hypothetical questions because even god can't change the past, but if you guys would please just think about the answers and maybe write your thoughts here if you feel so inclined. and i hope that others will pose similar questions to themselves and maybe write their thoughts here without taking swings at each other. please. and yes this is going somewhere and i'm not trying to decive i'm trying to think outside of my own head and my own experiences. thank you. lindaz, if you had not been actually healed would that have made you look at the "dr" and the way international in a different light? geisha779, if nobody had helped you with your child and left you on your own to figure things out would that have made you reconsider your involvement in the way international? coolchef, if you had not been friend and family but instead a stranger to people in the way would that have changed your perception of the way? who here would have stayed involved with the way international if they were made to feel less than and unimportant and to be blamed?

do i dare jump into this fray? no i dare not and i won't because it's not at all about the discussion topic as i put it forth, but the topic i did put forth was not of a blanket statement and i was very careful to specify that i was talking about me, myself and I and how the three of us came to understand the confusion it was for us as a child to have on one hand these horrors of horrors happening and on the other hand these "good times" were always there to make me doubt myself and my experiences of the horrors. and the only way in which i "generalized" the original topic was to point out what i have read here at the cafe, and i was very careful to say that of course there were good times or nobody would have stayed around. and in the beginning this whole discussion was posed as a question and then i answered the question as pertains to my, myself and i. the fact that i went overboard not to offend anybody and kept trying to explain myself ended up that i found myself in the middle of what i saw was brewing to be the fray that is now fully steeped and was never necessary except that people read things as pointing fingers at them and that includes me, but i didn't start this discussion pointing a finger at any person but at a pattern called the cycle of abuse. and that hasn't even been discussed yet!

this stuff is more than just difficult to comprehend and talk about and interact in a way that we aren't face to face so i see how things can get touch and go with how to interact with people. i come on strong here in writing but in my head i am speaking quietly and calmly and really pretty much matter of factly, but how can anybody know that just by reading what i am writing? they can't so i will learn that i might have to come back a few times to express myself with more detail or explanation, but in my everyday "real" life i am easily understood and easily express myself because even if my words are strong and overly descriptive i am right there and my voice is well modulated and my expressions and body language show the hearer that i am not angry or being forceful but am just discussing things. in fact one of the things my therapist has to get me to work on is showing emotion of any sort when discussing things, so i think i can tell him or her that maybe if i just write things like i'm on here and then maybe read them back to him or her i can find my way to speaking as passionately as i'm writing here? just to make things a little more clear if they can be made so at this point, what i meant when i said "vomit it out of my brain" was not that i wanted to vomit from my brain but that i wanted to let all the way stuff in my brain come out and because the way stuff in my brain is poison then it would be like vomitting as in "spewing" which is pretty descriptive of how things are coming out for me when i write here. and when i said "i'd like to meet this "christ"" i put christ in "" to show that i don't think it would be the actual christ that would ask such a question, so it wasn't like i felt like i wanted to punch jesus in the mouth but that i felt like i wanted to punch any false christ in the mouth, and i didn't say i would do such a thing or even wanted to do such a thing, but that it made me feel that way, so when i talk about how things make me feel i'm not talking about just because i feel that way then i'm going to go out and do something like that! i do have more self control than to act out such things just because i feel a certain thing. and i don't shun advice, but i do get a bit pi$$y if it's said over and over again, but i do get it when people are just trying to help.

ok i get it to not hang out here and write and read to the point that everything else i do suffers and i become hooked into here like i was back in the way or something, and i get it that you guys have got my best interests at heart, and i get it that there were a few people that never saw abuse in the way. but i have to say that this repeated "encouragement" to do something else right now feels alot like "exhortation" in the way. i'm not stupid and i'm not broken beyond ability to think for myself and make my own choices. and i never said things like "vomiting out my eyes" or "beating jesus in the face" and those things are just twisted of what i really did say and that bothers me a whole lot, and it also bothers me that so what if i did say such things anyway? if that's my reaction to what happened to me in the way then so what? what happened to me in the way was bad very bad and if i want to describe it with strong words that give a mental picture of how bad then so what? thanks for your concern and your help, but please remember that i am not a child any longer and that i am under professional care and that i have managed my own life pretty darned good to before participating here so i will most likely manage it pretty darned good long after participating here.

the funny thing is that i became a member here to join in the "easy" discussions like in the silly forum or the song discussion, but then i started talking about me and how i had begun to understand some things and now look at where i'm at still. i honestly thought i was through my anger and onto the healing until i actually participated here instead of just read. it's like some missing part of therapy has finally been found and the leaching out has finally begun. and you are right doojable that just when i think i'm done with it all somebody says something and it all wells up again inside of me and feels like i must get it out before it consumes me, but i haven't been doing this for very long so i think i'm ok and don't need to be worried yet. i went 4 days last week without writing anything here, so i'm good aren't i?

it was scary for me the first time i heard about the possibility that a person can think about two different things, agree with two different things or more, and even not be quite sure about any of it at all. now i know that "sanity" is a perception and it really depends on who you're talking to as to what that perception is. growing up in the way it was never acceptable to hold more than one thought in your head, but if you did you learned not to tell anybody about it, and if it was contrary to acceptable doctrines you really were in for it big time if you told somebody. and why does it have to be one way or the other in anything? i was watching a science channel series on time, and the one part i saw was about "personal" time and how nobody experiences time in the same way and that's why everybody's perceptions are so different. there is no constant with time. that's pretty easily understood, so why can't that same understanding be applied to thought and consciousness? even with "biblical understanding" the mature person must admit that the bible is self contradictory and must be understood not as absolute "rules" but as a telling of a people's history and their relationship with their supreme being. i mean on the one hand the bible says "thou shalt not kill" as one of the big ten, but on the other hand all of the books and context around the big ten is very much about killing. or "thou shall not commit adultery" and yet it was common to have more than one wife. and no matter how anybody tries to explain away the contradictions it is obvious they are there and that they are there because people are contradictory and the book is about people more than it is about anything else. but that's another subject and i don't want to "derail" this train. does "magic" exist? i think the one thing the video makes clear is that the answer lies in one's perceptions and understandings.

aw roy! i know, i was just teasing myself really. thank you.

it wasn't just my mom and because of this discussion i've come to realize that it wouldn't have mattered if it was the way international or the local church my mom was going to live for the "opportunity" to belong and be "somebody". and also because of this discussion i've also come to realize that at least some of my anger is about how all of the other adults either just stood around and kept their mouths shut or helped my mom abuse us or jeered at my mother for our behavior until she did abuse us or were just plain the abusers themselves but were never held accountable because we of course "deserved" whatever happened to us because of our "disobedience". from where i stood in the way international bad parenting and actual abuse was not an exception but a norm that was institutionalized and expected, and from what i've read here my experiences were not an exception but a rule so i haven't changed my mind but instead have had it proven here that my understanding of things is not off the mark.

"I am glad you see things as real my friend" i have never been accused of THAT before in my whole life!

i'm sorry ham. i remember when my grandma died and i was told that i had 3 days to grieve and after that i would be "entertaining a devil spirit" so i got whacked hard with the wooden spoon every time i cried for missing my grandma.

i can't help but to hear that quote running through my brain every time i read this thread. how does it go? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) many "good" twigites stood by silently and did nothing when children were repeatedly smacked with the wooden spoon, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when people trying to help those children were "reproved" loudly and frequently and at length with terrible insults and dire threats to their well being, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when their "sisters in christ" told them what was happening in the motorcoach, and i could go on and on but i just can't help to wonder how "good" those "good" folks really were at the time?

simple enough, but that's the problem it's black and white thinking to me and so i associate it with other things that "teach" via black and white thinking, and it is really oversimplifying the matter to say that a person is either one or the other because a mature mind can and does often hold two opposing thoughts as acceptable and "real".

i think i've found the root of some of my anger and it is this idea of crediting anything good and godly to the way's commandments and doctrines. people here have said it over and over again that the way international and pfal and the "dr" did not teach people how to be vessels for god, but how to make god into some sort of genie in a bottle or santa claus or good luck charm all kept hidden away until you want him to perform at your beck and call. and even with it right there in black and white with sound logic and true caring there are people that still come back and say things like "well i learned in the way" or "if i hadn't taken pfal" or "the "dr" taught me" and all the while not giving god the glory but giving a drunk and rapist and pedophile and thief the glory. that just chaps my a$$ raw and makes me want to hurl. i love what excathedra said about just because god led you out of the way it doesn't mean he led you in, and just because he worked through you in the way it doesn't mean he liked doing it.

this is great discussion going on here and i appreciate it very much because it makes me dig deep and really think instead of just feel the hurt all over again and again. i've never been able to really talk about these things before because the discussion would get so emotional and break down into a family feud, so this venue is doing me a whole lot of good that i wouldn't have gotten otherwise. thanks everybody because i know it takes alot to "put up with" being questioned and stuff, so i'm glad you guys have been so patient with me and this discussion. bigben said "I can't help wondering if they STILL retain some form of contentment in a smug, benign sort of way, knowing that if their 2nd choice of spiritual enlightenment is eventually proven to be wrong, false...that, hey, what the heck, I'll still be at the 'gathering together'" and ham said "I dunno.. one LONE SINGLE innocent victim is far too much. *you* can have my "eternal life".. back.. along with te "good times"..it's not worth it.." wow! potent very potent things to think about that i never really thought about before and may even deserve their own discussions. something i am realizing because of this discussion is that i have been very mad at anybody and everybody that ever was in the way because i have felt that if they hadn't been involved and hadn't been feeding the machine then nobody would have been hurt so badly. now i am looking at things differently and am beginning to think that if it wasn't the way international then my mom would have found something else because that's who she is and was and she needed to belong to something to make her feel worth something after the divorce and everything because she lost custody to my dad because he made her out to be a worthless mother. that's a thought i never considered before because it's been too easy to just blame her.

me too.

whole different lot of goods than we were sold in the way, isn't it?

you guys are giving me alot to think about and i like that a whole lot because it helps me to understand and work out things for my own brain to heal. i hope that i don't come off as trying to "win" anything here, but i hope i come off as trying to reach inside of myself and bring out the things i've never been able to say or even admit thinking before now, and the responses help me to do that and maybe it all might help somebody else too.

i have read a couple of editorials on the front page about doctrinal errors inside of these classes, and i have read many discussions here on the forums concerning these errors, but i haven't read any discussions about the very concept of the titles of these classes, and that doesn't mean the discussions aren't around but it just means i haven't read them. on the good times discussion it was brought up that there seems to be a difference between "old" guard and "new" guard in the way when it comes to "good" or "bad" experiences, and i have read a whole lot about this and it seems a pretty popular perception, but then i have also read many terrible things that happened even as far back as 1973. and on that same discussion i talk about the very concept of "power for abundant living" being the culprit of the beginning of the horrors, but i didn't put it like that, so this all made me think about the actual concept of the classes themselves. the title of pfal seems to be based on john 10:10 kjv that says "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (i will use kjv for references because that is what was used in the way.) but in typical way international fashion that verse was honed in on and used abusively while forgetting about the rest of that chapter or even the very next verses that say "11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." the concept of "power for abundant living" as taught in that class has nothing to do with the good shepherd laying down his life for the sheep, and in fact has everything to do with the hireling that flees at the first sign of trouble and allows the wolf to scatter the sheep because he doesn't care about the sheep. in "power for abundant living" it was taught to get what you can and blame others for their "unbelief" if they don't get theirs. the "abundant living" is not about anything in the rest of john 10, but about individual prosperity, and the "power" is not from "on high" but from knowledge=power, and it is power to get things and to shun people. i have never taken the wap class or even heard of it until i started reading here, but the title of the class says it all to me.

when i first read bolshevik's analogy i also thought it was not quite right, but then i though about it some more and for me i was able to see that getting high and doing things inadvertently really is analogous to much of what i experienced in the way in that i saw many people really did get high on their "knowledge" and "wisdom" and the "mannies" and the "hevvy revvy" and the "power for abundant living" concepts all of which led to having power over those considered less than. and even if it wasn't done on purpose and even if nothing someone might consider "bad" happened, the very idea that knowledge=power when it comes to the bible and living an interpretation of the bible is quite harmful, and it is written in that very bible what happens when knowledge "puffeth up" and becomes the thing to have. so the analogy works for me when i stand back and recognize that the very concept and the very premise of everything done by and for and of the way international was to sear the conscience with the very hot iron of knowledge=power and then being so high on that power. and even if nobody in particular used that power to do anything particularly "bad" the whole thing in and of itself was "bad" and i feel that the things that happened to people because of the whole thing need to be seen not on an individual basis but as a whole because it was as a whole that things got to the point where rape and suicide and molestation and pedophilia and wife abuse and all the other crapola became institutionalized in the way international via the "lockbox", and it was as a whole that it took decades to even be able to bring these things out into the open and discuss them without fear of retribution from the way international, and that hasn't even stopped yet. and before anybody takes offense please know that i am not pointing a finger of blame at any individual, and i am not trying to negate or make anyone feel guilty about their individual experiences that were "good", but i am trying to express that being a part of the whole meant that regardless of intentions things had gone to hell in a handbasket and every penny of "abundant sharing" and "tithes", and every report back to hq, and every other thing that was done that kept the machine oiled was also done to keep the secrets whether that was the heart of the individual or not.

teaching people doctrines and commandments of the way international and teaching others of god's love are NOT equivalent.

it does help me a whole lot to better understand where you're coming from because it sets up a big difference between you having a choice about how your life in the way went and me never allowed that choice because i was a kid so what could i do about any of it, and i did try to tell the family court that i hated the way and why i hated the way and that i hated being with my mom because she forced me to be in the way with her but the way sent a lawyer and made themselves up to be a shining star of "godliness" and me to be a manipulative little cry baby that wanted to have to not obey my mother and they brought "witnesses" and everything about how much trouble i was for leadership in twig and in children's fellowship because i wouldn't obey, and how much trouble i caused between my brothers and sisters trying to talk to them about what was happening to us younger kids and causing trouble between my dad and my mom and making everybody come to court just because i didn't want to obey. it confuses and angers me terribly when people have the accounts of abuse right in front of them but then turn around and try to say it was all "isolated" and not a part of the whole and the "good times" override the truth of the matter, but now i see that that is not what you're saying so thank you for taking the time to put up a more detailed explanation because it does help me to understand and not be so angry.

the part in this post about the "christian" family and sex class made me think of the documentary Cult Killer: The Rick Rodriguez Story , and so do a whole lot of my experiences as a kid forced to partake in the way international's insanity, so what exactly can i do with what i know besides vomit it out of my brain and do what i can to heal? and i'd like to meet this "christ" that would ask such an inane question of people so horribly abused in the name of "god" because i feel like punching him right in the mouth as many times as i could until i was worn out and then get my breath and start in again.

ham, i agree wholeheartedly. waysider, i think i've said it before that the "good times" were usually the hook that kept people around. geisha779, this is not directed at you or your experiences, but it is in response to this statement of yours "VP wasn't there at my baby showers or at the birth of my kids. . . didn't come to my wedding. Those are my memories and he doesn't have a place in them.". the "dr" was not the cult because no one person can be that powerful, but it took everybody playing along to make the organization a cult whether anybody was a decent human being or not, and that does not mean that decent human beings were "bad", but it does mean that decent human beings played along with abundant sharing and tithing and running classes and witnessing and all the things that kept the organization growing and prospering regardless of the abusive system it was.

i tried to stop it from happening but it didn't work, but this discussion is focussing in on if the "good" times were "real" or not, and that isn't at all what i meant when i started the discussion, but what i meant and i think i expresed was to look at what was called "good" from the "bigger picture" perspective. this batting back and forth whether or not the "good" was "real" is not a discussion that is going to go anywhere because that's all perception and perception is reality to the perceiver, but what i was trying to get at was to broaden the perception and then maybe the understanding of how people were duped.

this is just so cool! where do i send my offerings and when can i move into the compound? i'm just teasing. this does describe so well what i am going through and have been going through for a few years now, and i've even done some "homework" where i can stand naked before my mirror and look at myself and not be afraid or ashamed or feel ugly or have the urge to quick grab a robe and hide it all.