Shellon

You are very welcome act 2 ! It's been such a joy of mine to read them to be allowed in that part of your own journey and I get to apply stuff you learn to my own, so not a bad combo gig huh? Congratulations, in advance, for your strength and determination at working toward your college degree. I know all too well what a challenge that is and know the courage it takes and the fight it can be to hang in there. I can't wait to celebrate with you ! ! As I've said, I landed her by default after wandering into Waydale in 1999, my goal was to connect with my husband's family when they might find the guts to talk to me. That never happened there or here, but friendships have been forged and experiences have gone on that I wouldn't change for a thing. I've been able to hang out here and think and consider and wonder and make my own choices about, because someone else had the courage to tell their story or answer a question; alot of the time I didn't know I had the question. My needs, as far as a group therapy setting might go, are not about what TWI did to me, although I suppose they did 'do' those things. But my reality is that they didn't do any more to me than others before them or some since. I've said TWI was the best and worst thing I ever did and I don't have to many 'oh crap' moments about that time. As I wander around in this life, I am so very curious and want to know everything ! I want to ask questions and happen upon the right people who will be tough enough to not be afraid, who will actually really honestly truly tell me. That has happened often here. If I never returned to greasespot again, I still hold dear and precious the things I would take from it and I hope that for those souls with enough guts and a little honesty to seek theraputic help, they find such a setting as well.

Thinking about your post more, wanted to answer more properly. There isn't really anything 'going on' but I am learning so much about myself and trying to understand how/why things happen, seeking answers and understanding that I'm likely not going to get answers and that pi$$es me off more than anything else. I'm the 'just tell me straight' girl and I'm learning that being that girl is a bad thing; I just haven't figured out where to put that and still be me. Clear as mud huh? But life is like that, isn't it? We have to keep breathing and not forget to breath out! oh yeah, that! As dynamics of life unfold and change and shift and stuff gets altered or good 'ol phucked up, we have to roll and bob and weave, huh? I can do that. I'm in a, hopefully, exciting place of wanting the old fashioned stuff, the traditional stuff, the american dream. Bob has been dead almost 13 years, my children are 28 and almost 15, it's time to do other things and explore, look for support and seek love. I grieve and I mourne and I learn that little is really known, little is honest and even less is revealed at the end of the day. To couple that with celebration of a new stage of life is major trippy. I've stated in this story that I seek the final chapter of it, I want to find an ending to this one, that I want to understand where I can learn and where I can teach and then I find that most days it's ok to understand that there really is no 'The End' to ones story; or I guess I hope so anyway. I struggle with how much of our lives I've puked out here and whether or not it will bite me in the a$$ and whether or not the cost will have been worth that loss. It's so easy for any of us to say "thank you for telling your story, it helped me more than you know" but I'm finally getting that those who say that are no where to be found tomorrow. Real life is real weird. I keep hanging on to such a pride in my daughters that yet remains unfathomable and makes the heart in my chest swell. I am so damn proud of their tenacity and strength and so thankful for their laughter and their genius, their grace under their mothers need and their generosity to me. I'm so thankful they were given to me to take care of and love. I'm beyond grateful for their story of love and their own personal journey that I get to be a part of. I regret hurts and I am sorry for my part in them and yet I understand they, too, are a part of this; my own journey. I've decided to try to finish my degree but will never again promise. I've chosen to start my business but will no longer explain why to those that don't get it. I've come full circle in appreciation for those that get my honesty and can hack it but understand those that are scared. I've realized that I know nothing in my curiosity to learn everything. I am now comfortable with the strengths of those that can ask and hear me when I answer. My grandfather told me so many wonderful and helpful things as I was growing up and I listened very closely with powerful love for the man; I have many favorites. He told me to not fear change, to not run from loss, to stick it out no matter how bumpy it might get, he told me to keep my word no matter who else kept theirs, he told me to never take what was not mine and to have the courage to remember. Smart man, I wish I could thank him again and I even more wish he knew my children and was still here to give me more of his sage wisdom earned from hard fought experience under sometimes vile and ugly conditions. He would understand like no one can now be willing. Put one foot in front of the other even if you have to literally grab your pants leg to do it.

Hi Mike, glad you stopped by for an update, I sure pray for this with you, as you know. Your frustration here is evident and I've sure understood that as you've journey'd this one all these years.........gak! By the by, hollar at me soon, will ya? I need some more confusion in my own head about grants blah blah and oh shi+.

I do the majority of the laundry around here, but my Kelly does her own, usually, 'cuz I don't fold right or something. Last night she had so much homework to do I offered to help her out (with a promise to not fold) and found in various pants pockets 1. I think it was a dried cherry 2. pebbles 3. note from a boy 4. eraser 5. the pencil belonging to the eraser, I think; a little stub of a pencil, actually. 6. $1.02 in coins When she was a toddler, I'd find funner stuff like what was left of a Robin's egg, a pretty leaf. Her sister, my 28 y/o daughter had more fascinating and often scarier things in her pockets like bag of weed, switch blades, a summons and once a half of an apple. My fave memory of this part of being her mom was finding three baby snakes. She was going to put them in a teachers desk drawer and "oh yeah I forgot!" Sigh............ What kinds of stuff do you find in your kids' britches if you do their laundry?

Oh I agree with that whole heartedly, yes ! I just reacted without thinking, without stopping and thinking some more and even more "am I sure" and hurt someone I love. It wasn't with out feeling, however or without being sure of what I thought I believed at the time. Regardless it caused great damage that I'll forever remember and hope to not repeat in our relationship. So, yes, it can do more harm than good. Even a good therapist can do alot o harm if s/he and the client are not locked in pretty tightly, moving in the same direction. It's a tenious balance on the best day. I hope we learn and do better and as I've said about my life, I hope I get it right more than not. Communication, thinking through as much as possible, everything and hanging back sometimes til we react, YES~! And now I can say I'm getting a huge dose of remembering that acting and reacting are two very different animals. "It's all in the going......."

Hi Billy, wow I"ve missed your face around here ! And what you said there, may I just simply say........... I do think that us human beings do, in fact, react and while it's not always pretty and it can even be very messy, it's normal. I am learning lately that while I might react to something in that manner, I have got to stop and collect my self and do some painful "oh shi+" time and figure out why. Hopefully I do that better and better all the time and even get it right once in awhile. In therapy sessions, often that kind of thing is vital to getting it out there and said and then can be taken on fully to the end of understanding for all involved. Painful process, to be sure. I'm reminded lately, too, of the "meet people where they are" and I don't know that to be any specific method or theory, just a note to self and hopefully to my clients if I'm worth a damn as their facilitator. I'm also learning the hardest way that I get, now, why most shrinks are required to see a shrink before they can practice. Sure can't hurt ! We here at the 'ol cafe are, or have the potential to be very valuable for and to each other. It's in the context, it's in the situation, it's in the need and the specific charge isn't it? Absolutely I do think we human beings benefit much more with both cognitive AND behavioral therapy coupled, no doubt whatsoever. The most painful words to me about 9 years ago, but the words I learned the most from were a fellow student of this stuff who had the courage and said to me "you can't decide to walk the talk or talk the walk, please make up your mind or better yet, do both !" I actually did write it down exactly as he said it. I've never forgotten it and I even get it right from time to time; that's where the value lies for me.

Amen George and hello, how the heck are you? Is it the Dilbert Effect where managers, for instance, place the least productive or most problematic employee in the least exposed position where s/he can do the least amount of damage? It's an odd form of Psychotherapy to consider that one, although I can see it, here and elsewhere. My personal fave, actually, at least some day. Right now, I'm the boss and only employee, so that's kinda weird sometimes... Or the Hawthorn Effect where clients (or employees since I've gone to that context here it seems) modify their behavior and attitudes because they know they are being measured. I'll ever be thankful for this joint for the platform it has and will continue to provide but yeah, I agree with what you've said. I spent some time recently hanging out at Al-Anon to gain coping skills with my oldest's daughters drinking problem(s) and felt sort of in group therapy sometimes, but it did help me to see others in like situations, suffering the same kinds of losses and emotions and speaking the same questions, seeking the same answers. Some kind of comfort, yes. Which is, of course, the premise to group therapy; make those involved feel less alone, less isolated, less vulnerable and more "whew, it's not just me!"

What I'm trying to ask or suggest is this....... Is Greasespot Cafe like group therapy?

Your leader was mistaken

In the process of maybe finishing my degree in Human Service, piggy backed with my certification in Psych Therapies, I just got my books and syllabus for class that starts tomorrow. Psychoanalysis 401 Now, yes, I agree.......eeeeeeeek But I've always thought of greasespot cafe as a level of Group Therapy Of course Freud conceived the Psychodynamic Theory. He believed that unconscious psychological forces determine thoughts, feelings and behavior. By analyzing "interactions among group members, psychodynamic therapies focus on helping individuals become aware of their needs and motivations as well as the concerns common to all group members" Until the 40's, this appears to have been the only form of psychotherapy. Is it, in fact, true that all human beings are capable of consciously controlling their behavior and taking responsibility for their own decision? Do we do that for each other, enourage that? Do we even have to? Am I accountable for anyone's crap but my own? My answer is no, which might offer a problem in lack of cooperation. Things to consider: Instillation of hope Information giving Altruism Corrective recapitulation of the primary family Improved social skills Imitiative behavior Interpersonal learning Group cohesiveness Catharsis Existential factors Consider when immigrants showed up on the American shores; your family or mine. They formed groups, organizations were formed such as Hull House in Chicago, where they received assistance as to adjustment of their new lives. Also provided were Settlement Houses who assisted in securing decent housing, work, etc., living skills necessary. Group participation was, of course, required. Adler, one of Freud's students, embraced the idea that groups forming under a common bond were more effective than trying to go it alone. Support groups. The birth of social work groups? Like this one? Speaking only personally, I wandered in here by default from waydale and I've sorta stuck around (against my better judgement alot of days, but not the point). Does it serve a purpose as to my growth and betterment? As some what of a loner and a controversial individual, do I fit? Do I care if I do. Do I contribute as to another's growth and betterment? I'm well aware of the 'group think' problem. What of it might be good? I've done therapy, group and otherwise; both as a client and a facilitator. It's a slipper slope with a few foot holds tossed in where we least expect them and it's always our own choice as to whether or not we accept them. That happens to be my favorite part of the process.

Thanks you act2, you're very kind to me !

Hello Jeff and Doojable Your concerns and encouragements are welcome and appreciated; thank you. I guess it doesn't bother me much, I knew when I started telling this story that it might ruffle some feathers, it might pi$s some off or minimally generate some hurumphs! I'm ok with that, thanks to the great support and encouragement to even TELL the damn story in the first place, after so many years of just sitting on it. Thanks, Jeff. Even in the prayer forum, sadly not everyone is supportive and/or encouraging and while that's sad, I am not altogether shocked, even if disappointed. I determine that I'm not going to shut up anymore, regardless. Not even with -1's all the day long. That is not to be confused with never considering that I'd made a huge error in putting this out there. It's my life and my children's lives and the life of a man who can not speak for himself. I'm not necessarily proud of that, all the time. Most of the time I wish I didn't even have a story to tell ! As my life unfolds and I understand more and more of my own strengths and places where I have weakness or fault, I also understand that the strengths far outweigh the others and it's ok.

I sorta hate to have this end on some morose sad place. This last week, for me, has been one of great loss and great understanding and great reckoning; none of it fun, none of it holding the humor that I usually search for and cherish. In five short and fast paced days, a family member has acted in such a way as to make us understand cruel and sick, I've lost a dear and loved person, I heard both my daughters say things to me that no mama wants to hear but has to if she's worth a shi+ as their mother. I've journed on into territories that are scarey and exciting and containing a whole bunch of 'oh crap what am I doing'. I am house hunting, I am starting my business finally, I have let go of some heavy duty crap and I've come to a renewed understanding of friendship and never want to take that for granted again. Tomorrow.....we'll see. Alot of the time I even get it right. I sometimes forget to breath out. In so doing the last couple of days I have had to admit things to myself that I've avoided, I've looked in the reflective thing and finally saw that I'm not one of the shiny happy people that I think is required of me. The point is that it doesn't matter what others require of me; I get it again. What matters is what I require of me and whether or not I deliver. At the end of the day when I put head to pillow, can I say I did my best, can I feel like my kids are proud of their mama, can I say my actions today were honorable, just? If either of those is a 'no' answer, then I pray for tomorrow to try again, to ask for forgiveness, to accept my faults as simply that, nothing bigger or worse. I have forgiven myself and that's a very welcoming, comforting place of the best acceptance and willingness to learn and grow and listen and hear and follow and keep understanding. It is well.

Love those babies ! Congratulations, very much

It is like that sometimes, Roy, yes. And understanding that loss, grief, mourning, the process, time limit......it's all very unique; no two people do the same things to express this stuff. My husband has been dead almost 13 years and it's odd to call him "my husband" since he's not anymore. The correct term is "late husband" which sorta makes me giggle cuz it just doesn't fit either. The man I was married to died and I was left a widow, which is another word that is distasteful isn't it? But yes, sometimes I experience anger at the death and then joy and love for his life. Sometimes I know the complete and utter loss of him in our lives and at the same time find thankfulness that he was there. And it does happen all at once, at the same time and never together; it's all over the board and I've come to understand, finally, that all is normal. There are other factors such as the length of the process. Is it easier, somehow, when the person was ill for a long time and we knew they were dying soon or is faster and sudden better for those of us left to grieve the loss? All of that, again, is unique to our family and so many other dynamics such as the stress of caring for someone we love as they suffer illness, knowing! it's happening. I don't think we can ever label any of this and I love that it gets discussed so as to understand and embrace others' feelings and views. I'm a mom so for me it's always been about my children. Yes I lost my husband, but they lost their father and were robbed of his company and companionship and love that of course is unique for them; my youngest was only 23 months old, she doesn't remember daddy. My oldest was 15 and the run off from his death almost took her out of this world herself, at her own hands. We just can't know.........Rockin' that we can talk about it!

Thanks, Roy So, as I understand it you are talking about the death of, as you say, spiders and such. I almost lost my leg and my life to a Brown Recluse Spider, so yeah, I'd kill another one if I happened upon it. And you're not speaking of death of humans, am I correct? When I made attempts to keep my husband from death during a heart attack and then nothing worked to save him, I understood that death. When I watched a patient hold their newborn baby while it died shortly after birth, I came to understand that death. When Hospice was involved in my grandmother's death and I was her caregiver, I came to understand that death. I was looking for clarification on human vs animal, creepy crawly things or something else to which you refer. Now I see you mean other than human life and death. I think.

Roy, I used to go about my day considering a thread here at greasespot all the day long. I used to hurry with my job or errands or whatever other project I had going on to get back here and see what might have been further contributed; it took up a LOT of my life. I don't do that anymore, except for this one. When it said "The Emotion of Death" you had my attention. I have studied death in psych classes, I have involved myself in the lives of those dying, their families and studied what happens after death with ernest and fascination. I have lost loved ones to this enemy and seen things involved in death I do not wish to see again. I fail, however, to understand what it is you're attempting to discuss here and, frankly, it's buggin' me. It's not a personal issue with you, please understand, I'm just trying to get it. Are you saying that we should not kill, we should not stomp a spider or destroy animals habitats or................ Bless your heart and mine. Help me out here so I can get this one outa my brain and perhaps participate or minimally understand. And since it's in Doctrinal, are we looking at death of things from a biblical lens or just in general like in PETA's view or as ones who love nature and it's holdings. Thanks for clarifying for me.

Well, newlife, you already know how thankful I am for your life ! My daughter said on facebook this morning "there are two types of people in this world; those who complicate and those who compliment". You compliment, no question. --------------------------------------------- On subject of this thread, I agree, it's so much easier, a time saver and less complicated and yes, complimentary, to not have to spend a lot of energy and time explaining "that other life I was in" to another person. I don't know, I understand that we all have pasts, we all have things we've done that perhaps our partner hasn't; sheesh I hope so, at least! However, in terms of general conversation and walking in this life, it does smooth things enough to aleviate a couple of issues.

Thank you and yes, I think I will.

Awesome 10,000 posts ! hahahaha that rocks. What does he win? A toaster? Hape4me has some really amazing appliances that are, actually, very valuable. Maybe he'll part with one as your award. Award, no award, we're glad you're here.

And today I'm struck more than in a very long time with how very alone it is to parent after a spouse has died. I have decisions to make regarding my child, very important ones that will shape her future, maybe, and I have to do them without the bounce of the other person. Pay the bills. Alone Mess up the plumbing by thinking it can be done without a professional. Alone Decide what car to buy, is it the best buy. Alone Deal with teachers, school boards, bully's. Alone Take on major decisions that might very well alter our lives. Alone Death of loved ones. No one but me. Our oldest child's high school graduation. Yup, just me Our youngest's first day of school. Ditto Our oldest's drug problem. Solo Our youngest's current health issue. I'm it our oldest's recent hospitalization, almost bleeding to death and then her surgery after. uhhuh you guessed it. Life Alone

Imagine, if you can, the ability to crush a person. Take her will to live. Remove all joy from her life until she's a hollow shell of a human being whose only thought is "Dear, God. Why haven't you killed me yet?" That might be the best way to describe losing my husband and trying to understand where a f'ing religious organization might have played a part, where the man was his own enemy, where I "missed it", where the he!! we go from there and seriously looking at my kids and knowing that I have to get up, I have to breath, especially breath out. The human spirit is a fragile thing. A friend of mine on the phone last evening said "I wish my man would die like yours; it has to be easier than this bullshi+ I'm living with now. My answer was for her to look in the faces of her children as they lay sleeping and ask herself some serious questions. I am a strong woman, I am a fierce scrapper and I'm still very pizsed off but my babies needed their mama, my babies needed some solid something, my babies needed to know that even though daddy was dead, mama was not going to die too. It's a daily thing when you're that low and breathing isn't always the better choice. I didn't want to consider that my breathing was only contigent on my man being alive, but when one speaks vows to another, at least for me, I was serious; I meant every word and I fully joined my heart with his so what was I to do with this half of a heart now. It sure didn't beat in any pattern that was compatible with life. I keep trying to find an end to this story and there just doesn't seem to be one. This morning as I watched my 14 year old walk from my car to her school, I remembered her at 23 months old when daddy died. She had no idea what was going on, she played, she sang to herself, she stuffed strawberries up her nose while I was on the phone with a Coroner deciding the disposal of her fathers remains. Now she's this amazing, beautiful, hysterical teenager and I decided that's what this life is about, we're ok, we're strong and most days are really really good. Before becoming a widow at 36 years old, I only knew aged widows, you know, grandma. There aren't a lot of resources for young widows and people didn't really know what to do with me, how to speak to me, what direction to place their eyeballs when I was in front of them, what to say. Sadness, pity, sorrow, fear, confusion, awkward, unsteady, scared, speechless. Those are descriptions of how others behaved with "her and those two daughters". I felt if I stopped putting them in such uncomfortable situations that I could help them. So I stayed home. There's not much call for a single woman at weddings and somehow worse if she's a young widow. The tables at functions are mostly set for an even number of diners; couples. I was even uncomfortable at funerals ! 'cuz my presence somehow drew from that widow or widower into "oh, you must be in such pain being here". I often felt like I'd worn white to a wedding and distracted from the bride. Life is so odd.

Amen

One example probably shouldn't set the stage for all. Any relationship takes an incredible amount of work, maintenance, communication and willingness to hang in there to do all that. Having something in common from the beginning isn't a bad thing, even while it does have the potential to make things tougher, it can also have the potential to provide a good base. It's up to the couple. I might see where Martindale hooking up with a gal who had only had PFAL could cause massive strife, I get that part of your points. But like any relationship, twi related or not, both have to be 100% aware of the others' "issues" (I'm sick of that word) and deal. There is also the added good of some hearty discussions at the supper table sharing memories of all that stuff. "Remember the time Wierwille said _____ "and some great and necessary laughter to follow or perhaps some healing from being able to have someone that gets it. That's pretty valuable and easier in perhaps another dynamic where the other person just can't relate. I don't think it's as simple as putting on ones dance card "if you were ever in a cult, I won't do the two step with ya". Love doesn't come around very often and why not take it if it does, if both are ready for love and willing to do what it takes? And we can't judge a couple from one experience, as well, I don't think. Hopefully if a couple are rockin it like they're "supposed" to, it's not about twi or any other such prior involvements, but rather about the two of them figuring it out privately and personally and if they do choose to offer something more public, it's done with an amount of tact and respect to each other, before the community with which they share. Communication.

I remember the brownies Ron grew on his mountain.