Shellon

Waysider and geisha, oh hell yeah, I agree that those boundaries are VERY good, very good indeed. No way do I suggest that we should all be pals and buddies; that'd never fit someone like me. I like the faceless interaction, the 'you don't know me' most of the time. My point is that we can't really know what is behind one's post, what's going on in their personal life, just as it should be. I understand that if I read something posted, I can or can't jump to conclusions or assume. If Bowtwi, for instance, says something here, I've known her for 10 years, and I can feel pretty comfortable knowing exactly what she means. But we've met, trusted each other and share a friendship that is strong. If her post seems like she's piszed off, I know if she really is or just appears to be. Then I don't have to wonder. For the most part, yes, the boundaries are exactly as they should be. The majority of us have only one thing in common and it's more than enough.

Yeah, no kidding, Twinky. I would be the fault of whatever happened. There had also been some conversations about her recent behavior ( going MIA for days, defiance, drugs) that I knew were her reactions to her dad's death. So, the 'you have to put that child out' was close and I knew it. His comment was not a huge shock to me, really. I, by that time, also had known about Martindale's actions for quite a while. I just walked away from him and avoided him at all costs from then on until Sept 16, 1998 when I was done with my packing, etc and told him we were leaving. That was his opportunity to remind me I was killing my children with my actions. His exact words were "you are much worse than even I thought, aren't you? You insist on sleeping with the enemy, you've dragged this ministry down for years and now you're knowingly killing your children. Your husband wasn't enough?" What would be the point, really, in taking him on besides more confrontation, more accusation, more of his power and control. We just laid low for the next month until my brothers could get to me. As a mom I've had more than enough occasions to want to do permanant damage to those who hurt one of them, said stupid stuff or harmed us in some way. Again, how can I parent effectively, especially a really troubled 16 year old daughter, if I take actions that might have consequences that could keep me from her.

You're right, George, often it's not. But, sometimes it is and it happens every day here as long as GSC is open and operating for us to use. We have to trust our words, sometimes vital information, often the specific details of our lives. With people we really don't know.......

Yes, WG, I understand the trusting of one primarily. That feeling of that one person having my back no matter what, understanding me even if I'm not understandable. Also and maybe as wonderful is that trust including that one having the strength to say "sheesh, who shat in your oatmeal" but then staying around long enough to hear the answer. So, yes, there can be someone who does know us. Those relationships come with time and communication and maintenance and I do happen to be blessed with that kind of relationship. My daughters know me, mostly, and I trust them within reason to consider lovingly what I've said or done. But that's come only with 27 years of time and blood and sweat and tears. In a forum such as this it does behoove us to read and maybe read again and consider before we just react. Maybe ask more questions, maybe remain open ended for a time. Remember TWI used to teach that no one knows our heart except God and I think they might have added that we, ourselves, know our own hearts. But I'd agree with them that, indeed, our hearts can not be fully known by another unless we consider more than just what is obvious or apparent, be willing to do some back and forth and trust enough to be honest. I asked my maternal grandmother once about the Bible; what was all that and am I supposed to do anything. She said the only one I needed to concern myself with was doing unto others as I wished them to do unto me. Now, 50 years of life has taught me well that it's not nearly that simple, really, even if applicable. But she had the basic information correct. Even in a faceless forum with no eye contact, no body language, no voice? Yes

:) Jeff, as you know this issue is very important for me to discuss and not take lightly or with any dismissive tone whatsoever; it's the reality for so many women, sadly. One of the reasons I HAD to get out of twi was the lead pervert sidled up to me and reminded me my then 16 year old daughter was "almost ready for him", leaving no doubt whatsoever of his intent. Unfortunately I did not take the action I would today if some sexually abusive sonovabi+ch made such a comment to me where one of my daughters was concerned. I'd probably be writing this from some prison library if they let me have the privelege. This issue of women feeling like they have to be pawns of spirituality where men are concerned is overdue to be dealt with, addressed and stopped where possible. What can be done on a daily basis, perhaps, I don't know. As a mother of daughters all I know to do is tell them these kinds of stories, give them the tools to feel strengthened in their own right in church or any other place where men might want to use their bodies for such abuse and misuse in the "name of God". Kizka, I agree with Jeff, your post(s) have been very brave and I applaud you for the strength to disclose something so private and personal about yourself. For having the courage to say "it happened to me"; that does take an insurmountable act of bravery and honesty and trust of the readers here. For all but one year during our time in TWI, I was in a pretty strong marriage, thus not being one of their targets. (this has not always been the norm, I know that, it just was for me) While I experienced a few remarks and/or suggestive comments, I somehow knew that they knew my marriage was one of fidelity and if they wanted to persue any of their fool behavior further, they'd have a large and very pis*ed off husband up their asz. In fact, he did have to confront a time or two, expressing our marriage as a reminder and it was left as "yeah, I'd never mess with YOUR wife" and they didn't. Until he died. At that time I was on my own and the men in the fellowship(s) said they would be my head, they would see to my needs, they would take care of me. I was able to avoid any such confrontation, for the most part, except and until the comment about my oldest daughter that was a blazing neon flag to GTFO and I did, only 2 months later as I could figure it all out. The dynamics that make us who we are are profound and men who profess to be of God learn to recognize those dynamics. Somehow it's as if any childhood abuse screams from our person and says something to them that reads "She will do anything I say". Somehow they have honed their ability, however misplaced or incorrect, but assumed, to feel comfortable taking information we might have disclosed and using it against us. Classic abuse of power to which so many fall victim if only because of fear of further dismissal, retribution, fall from the grace of God or whatever s/he percieves as truth, given ones background, how persuasive the current liar is or other pressure we might never know of. Jeff, your sharing your own experiences puts a man's view to things, which is apreciated and welcomed by any that might assume anything. My oldest daughter, mentioned at beginning of post, seemed to be looking for family when her dad died; missing totally that she still had her mama and sister and extended loved ones at her disposal. She so badly needed to hear comfort and acceptance and consolation, looking for it in local gangs mostly. If the lead pervert had not made his comment to me, might she have been in a perfect vulnerable position to be his next victim? Thankfully we'll never know. And our family was about as "normal" as one can get; no abuse in the home, no violence, there was more than enough love and kindness and acceptance. I add that to suggest that it's not just the dynamics of our backgrounds, not just because of our history, not necessarily because we seem to wear some victim flag; it's about power and control and abusing of same.

This morning my teenager heard me give her instruction on what I needed her to do this afternoon, I said it to her face. Because she's mine and I think she's very funny, it struck me when she said "you don't know me". Sometimes she says "you're not the boss of me" but the point is she knows which she can 'get away with' and when. I don't wish to discuss my daughter here, I just wanted that as intro to our own reality; we don't know each other, most of us at all, not even a little bit. I know a few posters here enough to say in jest 'you don't know me', having full knowledge that yes, you do know me and get me, understand what I say and how in the hell I mean it. That's an extra bonus when I don't even really know for sure what I meant. We judge, we assign, we assume, we label, we stereotype, we pigeonhole (I don't really understand that one but the list needed one more) and we think we know a poster here by their words typed on a screen. In fact, it's extremely difficult, even on a really good day, to really know. If my morning with my teenager were not at pleasant and I come to GSC and bark at the readers here, do you know I am out of sorts cuz I live with a teenage daughter? Not unless I say so, nope. If I have a disagreement with my boss and need to blow somewhere, GSC might be a great place to unload. And you might read my words and wonder what the hell got into me to make me so surly. Actually I'm the boss, so that disagreement could be weird, but you didn't know that til I told ya, huh? I've been hanging out in this joint for 11 years (waydale before here). O M G........ My point in admitting that is to understand that many of you have chatted with me, read my stuff here or in my blog, heard about me. A few have been in my home, been trusted with my children, feel comfortable talking to me on the phone. You would understand and say "I know you" and know from whence I'm coming in a post. Online communities are interesting and strange and sometimes frightening places that we have to make a choice about every day. No eye contact, body language, voice influx. We have to meet each other where it appears we are today and not get constipated if we might not be where we were yesterday. If I tell you I've been sexually assaulted in my life in a thread here, do you believe me? You don't have to, no. If you choose to believe me then we can share dialogue and perhaps, hopefully educate and help each other. If you tell me you've been in a car accident, I can't see your injuries, I can't hear pain in your voice. I will pray with and for you and offer whatever assist I might from such a distance in such a faceless manner. Trust is a scary journey.

Another resource, perhaps http://www.probono.net/dv/ Pro Bono Domestic Violence Information

Wow, "spiritually raped" Thanks for posting this cheranne

Wonderful news, congratulations to you and your family

Happy Birthday Garth

HA~! And Oy~

oh grrrrrrr the Moynihans....... Yeah, that's it

Oh hell yes Amen

Exactly ~!~!

I'm not so sure about the fear motivation in every situation. Was I afraid I'd lose my children if anyone wanted to try that? Sometimes, yes, it occured to me. Was I afraid my children would continue to be exposed to what I, myself, didn't want? Yes. Did the potential battle enter into my "concerns"? No question. But also it was more of a surety than a fear, whether or not they forced it down my throat; a reality of experience and seeing others receive same. I do things now that I don't necessarily want to do and until I can do differently, I'll have to continue doing them. I liken it to my time in twi as well. I'll do whatever I have to do to take care of, protect and provide what my daughter needs.

And George, I can of course respond only as a woman. We do tend to let the bug keep biting us since we're nuturers, we think of ourselves as the superglue, we have to do whatever we have to do to keep the poop in a group. So, sometimes it only appears that we're more convicted to some religious gig. We want our babies to grow up with some sense of who God is, we want some information to give them when they ask the tough ones,we don't want our kids to not have some base, we hold ourselves to different standards where managing our family is concerned. Sadly, those standards are most often too high, unreasonable. And if we see the family unit that is us falling into a gynormous pile of crap and we have a shred of hope, we'll do whatever it takes. Not to mention, as I've said, watching other women lose their babies in twi, or minimally having to figure out the dance of divorce and after in such an organization. We'll do whatever we have to if that can be avoided. Not all of us, I get that.

I understand your "willing to do for your wife" completely. I think we do what we do until we don't, maybe it truly is that simple sometimes. For us, my husband's death was certainly not the way I wanted us to get the hell out of there, but it's how it worked for us and yes, if he were still alive and our marriage had survived and he still said "we're staying" I'd be there now, cuz of the vows, period and the end. Also for us, we didn't discuss the issue, we didn't have arguements about what to do, we didn't have to make choices that would cause either of us or our daughters or extended family(s) pain. I can't say we avoided it, I can't say we ignored it; I do not know. I do know that I knew what was going on in twi and worked my a** off to keep the cover on us. If my husband knew the same things I did, then he worked just as hard as I. I also consider other dynamics of ones life that puts them in a "this is normal" for something like twi. Things like backgrounds, education, childhoods. For many of us that were raised in strong families and raised to stand hard and fast on our convictions, it contributed to our stay but it also made it very difficult to keep up the game face.

Good morning Copenhagen. Then you understand, as so many have and do, that it's just not as easy as 'pack yer crap honey, we're outa here' and s/he will surely pack yours too, just for effect and out of love. It's a stressful daily gig at best huh? Will keep you in prayers and look forward to the day, with you, when things are different for you AND your wife and family. Shellon www.shellonnorth.com

leafytwiglet Yup, we truly don't know. In our case, we also had extended family that was a huge consideration, even if I did only have to keep my own personal vows to my husband. And yes we lost them when we left, sadly; their decision. I've wondered if we might have gotten the boot to a$$ eventually and whether we might have left intact as a family. I like to think so, but I can not say 100%. And I have no way, again, of knowing for sure, but I suspect that I would have been the first out the door if a choice had to be made, given that scenerio, as well. Saddens me that life is tough enough anymore, trying to put happy marriages and families together without so much outside and undo influence. Sometimes it's just too much and too late to remedy, much less resolve or restore to health. Then to have to make decisions 'pros'; together with yet distinctly independant of. Yikes I do not miss that day to day struggle and moment to moment wondering about the dropping hammer. Sometimes it is easier to comply and fake it until other options are to be gained in some instances. I thank God I don't have to make those steps every day anymore, nor do so many others. But at what cost?

I don't think it's as simple as has been stated here. We can't know, exactly, a person's reasons for doing things they do, even the harmful ones that we think are the most idiotic things one could do. Why did we stay? I stayed because I spent 15 or so minutes standing up in front of some preacher promising to hang with the fellah next to me who was making the same kinds of promises and then they pronounced us stuck with each other no matter what stupid thing the other does. I wasn't willing to break those promises, it simply wasn't a question. And I did so knowing a little bit of the mess I was agreeing to regarding twi; I got involved in 1982 and married in 1984, so I was just getting started in the knowing of messes catagory. Then........I saw what happened to people who left without their spouse, what happened to their babies and families. Hell yeah, keeping my vows was a piece of cake compared to the potential ruin from the alternative. "look at what happened to her when she left....no thanks ~!" Besides I was pretty fond of the guy. I kept those vow's of "til death parts us" until death did part us. A year later I found a way for our children and I to make different decisions regarding twi, but only because my marriage vows were no longer more of my priority. By then 16 years of life had gone on, not to even mention two children who were in the equation. Now, I fully understand things are differant now in twi, different name plaques on the walls, so on and blah and perhaps we can say that those still hanging out in the joint have seen the last 10 years worth of disclosure and mess and "for cryin out loud oughta know better now". I submit that we can't know others' lives, what goes on in a family in the privacy of their home, what fears may still lurk, what promises might have been made, regardless of any "oh shi+" before, during or after. The writing may be on the wall now that twi has been properly exposed and duly hung out there for all to see. But in each person's heart and each family's dynamics, we really can't see. Why did each of us stay? I don't know for you or you anymore than you might for me. Well now you do, but I digress. :)