Shellon

Pond, of course ! I know what co-dependancy is. I welcome you to 'not disagree with me more', but remind you that I get how this stuff works. Of course I do, as we've discussed many times over the years.........

I've been thinking about this for awhile.....I know John so maybe that makes it move intriguing for me, I'm not sure. He and I have discussed this stuff in his life and we don't agree, but that's ok and that's not even the point. I see so many tired of his story and even more so his telling of it and I get that too. I think it's cuz he's "John Lynn" the former TWI celebrity figure, author, etc., et al., yes? We certainly wouldn't be hearing of Mr and Mrs Joe Smoe in such volume, nor would we care to, likely. By being who he is, perhaps he's held to more public critique and scrutiny and discussion. I also understand his tenacity (?) to continue to beat what seems so obviously a dead animal; I do that when something isn't done for me, or isn't settled where I need it to be and it's freakin annoying to those that care about me, I know this. So what is the answer? I'd offer what has been said here in the realms of "for cryin out loud, get over it, move on, yer killin' us here, John" but that might not work for John. We have those that were in TWI leadership roles that we remain interested in, remain in longing for news on and remain fascinated by the discussion of. I'm not sure why John is one, except that he moved from one leadership capacity into another one and maybe the lessons have repeated; I'd vote yes on that one. I'm more than ready to let John and his family live their lives and leave them the heck alone, sure. I'd love to yak with him on the phone about my own stuff, or visit with him about the simple things of this life like grandchildren and funny stuff. I wonder if so long as a man is held under certain standards if he doesn't feel like he then HAS to rise to them and HAS to give answers. If we engage, he'll engage. The celebrity who feel obligated to his fans to show up and sign autograph's and give interviews kinda thing. I tend to see John as just a man, like any other and maybe that's why I'll never really get it.

Love that, Geisha, thank you !

Hi David, thanks for the update, we continue to pray for your dad around here.

I did Childrens Fellowship alot during my 16 years hanging out there. I liked hanging with the kids more than the adults but as a mom of one of the kids in the fellowship, I wanted to have control and observance, as much as possible, what they taught her and how it was taught, so I volunteered to do any and all kids stuff as much as possible. I still have that red book as well as the children's sing along the way book. Welcome to the greasespot beanaboos.

yeah! thanks, hanging in there now, figuring it out.

Don't know IRC, don't have my own preferred client. What do I do now?

I think the relaxed, laid back atmospher might be good for some. I also see the disadvantages to that dynamic, too, such as lack of who's who and what are they there for. I'd much prefer it to stuffy church.

ADULT CONTENT Sunday evening I watched the MSNBC special they're doing on Cults; this time it was Branch Davidians, David Koresh We'll remember they were in Waco, Texas and after a 51 day standoff with ATF, FBI and others, their compound was destroyed along with many lives, including Koresh. The man believed he was "allowed" any and all women he chose, one of his wives was 14, the daughter of another follower who surrendered her child to him without pause. The gentleman they were interviewing on the show spoke of Koresh manipulating the scripture "any way he chose for any purpose" and of course this meant to meet his sexual needs as well. Koresh would take the scriptures about annointing the head of the man of God with oil to twist it into saying it meant the head of the man of God's penis and the oil was the physical releasing of "oil" of a woman's body during sexual intercourse. Sickened me then and yet.

Seems to be back on board, please try again

By Hillary Gavan hgavan@beloitdailynews.com Published: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:02 PM CDTJANESVILLE , WISCONSIN— “I’ve closed a bar down, but never opened one up,” joked Darin Wilson. Where can one hold a Bible in one hand and nurse a beer in the other? It’s at The Red Door, a ministry held at the Willowdale Saloon, 5905 W. Highway 11, Janesville, led by Beloiter Kathy Price. In an effort to minister to those turned off by traditional religion, Price holds services at the bar at 10:30 a.m. every Sunday. A social beer and cigarette is allowed as well as chicken wings, coffee and donuts. “I want the people who don’t want to go to church, those who are wounded and broken, especially from religion,” Price said. On Sunday, about a dozen people gathered around a few tables. One woman sipped a beer and a bloody Mary, a few people lit up cigarettes and the others munched on coffee cake. Price stuck with an iced tea, but said she didn’t have a problem with a couple of cocktails amongst the congregation. After all, she said some people will go to church with a hangover or have a beer afterwards. “I want to reach out to the person who believes a beer separates them from God,” Price said. Price, the daughter of Overflowing Cup pastor the Rev. Dave Fogderud, has been holding services on and off at the bar for a few years. Although some have attacked her for allowing visitors to drink beer, Price joked that putting down a beer is easier than forgiving somebody or letting go of anger. “Jesus said what comes out of the heart is more defiling than what goes into the mouth,” Price said. She added that certain sins, like drinking beer or smoking cigarettes, are focused on more than sins of the heart such as greed or self-righteousness. Price, who grew up in her father’s street ministry and coffee house, said she watched her dad minister to the homeless and the lost, joking that the “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.” A few years ago, Price said she became obsessed with the Catholic Saint Katherine of Sienna, a 14th Century figure known for preaching in pubs, and felt moved by the Holy Spirit do to the same thing. After she visited the Willowbrook Saloon one night to do karaoke, Willowdale owner Art Conner offered up the bar free of charge. Since starting up the services, Price has gotten a warm response. “There aren’t phonies or hypocrites,” said Dick Ziltner of Hanover, Wis. “No one’s begging for money.” Ziltner, a recovering alcoholic, drinks pop during the gatherings and is teased by others for being “the resident Billy Bob Thornton” of the group. For Ziltner, he’s finally found a group that loves and accepts him and his struggles. Over the years Ziltner’s had bad experiences at other churches. From ministers asking for money to getting beat up on his bike ride home from church in third grade, Ziltner’s been worn down by traditional religion, and Price said he’s not alone. “A hurtful church experience seems to stick with you. Religion has always had a damaging effect on people throughout history,” Price said. Beloiter Doug Goessel said he grew up Catholic and always believed in God, but felt he was never good enough, couldn’t follow all the rules and didn’t really understand the Bible. Goessel, who smoked a cigarette during the service, said he still struggles with his demons and doesn’t always share the same views with the others, but likes how the group isn’t tied to a certain building and doesn’t look down on people. Wilson, a father of eight, said he used to attend an Assembly of God Church, but was attracted to the idea of churches held in homes or other places, and was glad he could wear jeans. “I’m comfortable wherever God is and that’s everywhere,” added his friend Ed Eno. Many people are hesitant to attend church, Price said, because they feel they aren’t good enough, or are too sinful. For example, some feel they can’t live with their boyfriends or girlfriends, must cease swearing, or driving and talking on the cell phone before they can even set foot in a church. Sometimes, she said the “gerbil wheel of Christianity” eventually turns people off when they feel they can’t turn their lives around right away like traditional clergy expect. Although God heals hearts, she said behaviors may not change all at once. Price said Jesus came for the sick not the healthy, and met people right where they were in life. At the Red Door, Price said visitors don’t have to pretend to be something they aren’t. “I love them where they are at rather than where they are supposed to be,” Price said. “There’s nobody I refuse to fellowship with. I’d much rather hang out with someone who is broken, than someone who thinks they don’t have any need.” Prices defines spiritual success as having a relationship with God, which improves relationships with other people. “Religion doesn’t always do that,” Price said. <BR clear=all><BR clear=all>

Have I mentioned how proud I am of you, lately? Seriously, a man loses his wife, his family, his home, his job, basically in one fell swoop and against your own control or timing or choice, you had to decide to get up every day and keep sucking air. I get that each of us has our story, we all have to deal with our stuff and make those choices every day, but you've been willing to put your story out here. Inspriring, actually.

Ah, yeah, now we have it understood between us both; I like that, thank you

Thank you for your reply to me, sky4it, in attempt(s) to help me to understand your point(s) I, however, do not have an arguement with you or Calvinism or anyone/thing else, truly I don't. My point was simply that we can't really know another's experience, therefore I don't believe it fair for us to expound on them our own opinion. Now, having said that, I do understand this is a public forum where we all tell our stories if we so desire and we have to understand that we tell it with the reality that maybe noone will believe it; it's a given with the medium such as this. We have to, at some point however, believe the person has his/her right to say it. If we choose to be here and choose to read and consume at all another's story, we take it at that and hopefully discuss. Even Jeff, whom I highly respect, made suggestion that he didn't see it in the same light as WG stated it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to her nor does it make Jeff inaccurate in his assumptions or points any more that WG. It's great that we CAN discuss and disagree and even digress when necessary.

sky4it, I disagree, it is always possible to be more clear if one or more do not understand; at least it's helpful and hoped that if someone doesn't understand your point that you'd at least attempt to do so. I appreciate Watered Garden's points in that if one feels bullied, it's not for me or anyone to say s/he wasn't bullied. When my youngest child was threatened in her middle school I certainly considered that "bullying" but met with only resistance from Admin at her school, other parents, even my peers and it occured to me rather quickly that, of course, they couldn't stand up next to me and hollar as loudly as I, since they'd not seen it or experienced it themselves with their own children. That didn't make it untrue for mine.

Several, many things said in last night show struck me but mostly when one of those interviewed said that Koresh didn't discourage debate with him, in fact he did allow it, what he didn't allow was debate with ones self. Loved that; perfect way to describe the self doubt that is pushed back again and again and again and so much easier each time. Until finally it's lost, or completely gone, the inability to look in the mirror and ask "am I in some deep feces here?"

Top Ten Crazy Cults according to LiveScience http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/top-10-crazy-cults-1.html

I tend to shy from those that say "oh, and I'm a Christian" or expect me to think something different 'cuz of that or 'cuz they SAY it. In my trust issues, if someone makes a point of saying it to me, alarms go off, whether or not they should.

Was fun to reconnect again, eh? Hopefully will be for more, soon. I'll try to peek in tonight, too, not sure yet.

My suggestions would be practical ones for anyone just leaving. If you've been hanging out for a very long time, plan to grieve a loss. Plan ahead for the first night or afternoon where you'd usually be in a fellowship somewhere. All that stuff you wished you could do that night? Do them, start simple. If you still need/want to tithe, research a place to give your dollars. I gave my 15% to Head Start for awhile cuz it's a program I highly believe in. If you need a church family, start simple like going to a public event they have; bake sale, etc. Great relaxed way to meet new friends and listen. Take a freakin' vacation where YOU want to go. Re-structure your down time and make attempts to shove aside the guilt when you're not using this time studying Acts or Revelation or planning the next event. Get a new address book instead of just crossing out those fools who won't or can't talk to you anymore. If you leave them in just crossed out, it's a daily reminder of the loss. Leave your ministry (or whatever) material up and laying around for a time and maybe take one or two down or put away slowly. This stuff has been a part of your life for a long time, it looks "empty" there without it. If you toss or burn or otherwise give away things in anger or grief too fast, the regret might be great later. Plan your answer for when you run into old "friends", as you surely will if you stay in area. Don't get caught off guard without a retort and don't avoid forever. You decide, though. Don't canel your Subscription to their mag or literature immediately. Look at it and use it as a reminder why you did whatcha did; it was right. Don't second guess yourself, it takes time to adjust to such a total and complete shift and it will feel normal again. Been wanting to read the most "devlish" book you can get your hands on but knew they'd find out about it? Read that bad boy. With a glass of wine or your fave brew. Then discuss with someone who's also read it, w/out a shred of guilt. Leave out on your coffee table in plain sight. Buy a brand new clean and fresh budget book. Keep old one with their structure for tax purposes, but start over fresh for yours. Spray some WD-40 on old bumper stickers and get 'em off. Do nothing drastic in a hasty manner. This is a loss, it's a shift in life and major decision shouldn't be made for at least a year in some circumstances. (This one was the one I learned the hardest way possible). Relax as much as possible. If your spouse/partner/suite mate/ kids/others aren't leaving the organization with you, don't stare at them in anticipation of them understanding how much better you are and why don't they get it. Strike a compromise for daily life and stick to your half of the deal. Rough day? Call that old friend who left before you and see if you can re connect; they'll likely be thrilled to big brother/sister you. Don't call everyone you ever hurt in the place right away. You know you're remorseful for some stuff and would like to start repairs, but overwhelming actions often brings overwhelming answers and it can seem undone later, making do over necessary. Take your time.