jen-o

hmmmm... this must be a sensitive topic... cuz i've seen 2 folks try to derail it... anyway.... truth is NOT the same as spin... which means that, by definition, pro-twi spin is NOT the truth...

no, on the contrary... if i was thinking twi dogma, i would believe that christians could get possessed... in all my time in twi, i never heard of anyone indicating that christians could not get possessed... in fact, i did see wafers quite frequently assuming that believers were possessed... and that is what i believed when i was IN twi... so i'm not sure why you've come to this conclusion... or why you assume that i hold on to any twi dogma... as for seeing relatives after they have died, i believe this falls under the category of familar spirits... (you may disagree, which you are entitled to) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ oh, btw, i totally disagree with your definition of possession and oppression... however, this i DO agree with...

go ahead and have a party over this legal decision if you want... but don't expect God to bless california because of it!God has already given his opinion on homosexual behavior: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." [romans 1: 26-27] "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them." [leviticus 20:13] "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination." [leviticus 18:22] "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals (malakos), nor sodomites (arsenokoites), nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." [1 cor. 6:9] "And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made." [1 kings 15:11-12] so like i said: have a party if you want, but don't expect God to bless it! i've heard this argument before, but being black is NOT the same thing as being homosexual... homosexuals want "rights" based upon BEHAVIOR (specifically, sexual behavior)...

well... i've seen a couple of them... one of them took the form of my dead grandfather on the night of his funeral... btw, i do not believe that christians can become possessed by evil spirits... oppressed? yes possessed? NO

hey dmiller and rhino, do you guys live in small towns? i'm just asking... cuz i live in a rather large metropolitan area... and no one seems to care about this kind of stuff... there's so much nutso stuff out in the world that my being in a peon cult like twi just doesn't even make the radar screen... LOL there are plenty of people that know i was "in a cult" (as i've mentioned it to them in passing) and no one treats me any differently after they know... in fact, i'm not sure they even remember (LOL)... everyone has so much of their own stuff on their plate... so i'm just wondering if this is a function of being in a small town instead of a large metropolitan area... peace, jen-o

dear chockfull, i hear ya, and i agree with ya... the scripture i learned by reading the bible for myself, on my own time, was definitely worth learning... of course, i did have to throw out all the twi interpretation that was attached to certain scriptures and let the Holy Spirit teach me afresh... :) peace, jen-o

steveo, the original post did not mention any names... and imo, the intent of the original post was to discuss the difference between truth and spin (especially pro-twi spin) oldies singled himself out and has attempted to make this thread about him... peace, jen-o

LOL, oklahoma city wow... now ain't that the truth! p.s. so jeff wants to know why a person would come here with the intent to provide a pro-twi spin... oldies seems to think that shoe fits him... and seems to be trying to derail the thread by shifting the focus to his foot instead of the shoe that fits it...

rascal, excellent analysis!! and very succinctly stated... peace, jen-o

when people have nothing to say... they say nothing (what a surprise!) and substitute "potty talk" for content... how juvenile!

welcome to the cafe, humblepie! i also took the pfal class for the first time in 1981... (that seems like a million years ago now) i'm glad you took the step to post! :) it's nice to meet you! peace, jen-o

well my goodness, aren't you the little drama queen! that was quite a bit of histrionics for someone who didn't post much of any content...

oak-ster, heheheheh

gee... why can't people just say: i'm sorry... i did something stupid...

well, i saw a normal, loving, kind-hearted, gentle man go into the corps program... and come out a mean, nasty, cold-hearted bully... i couldn't believe it... it was NOT the same person... what the heck did they do to folks in that corps program??

your welcome, skywatcher! :~) i agree with you... vpw and lcm ended up taking the place that rightfully belonged to Jesus... btw, i want to welcome you to the gs cafe! and thank you for sharing a bit of your story! hugs, jen-o

clear as mud...all you've done is tell me "the point is clear" but have said nothing to even clarify what your point IS... you still haven't told me what the difference is between God receiving proskuneo worship VS Jesus receiving proskuneo worship... i don't have to "address" the scriptures... i completely agree with the scriptures and with matt. 4:10!! but then again, i don't have to try and make the scriptures fit like a "hand in a glove" with mathematical precision and scientific exactness... i agree with matt. 4:10... and i agree with the 11 scriptures wherein Jesus is worshipped in the gospels... you draw the conclusion... gee, whitedove, it's interesting to note that you took your twi scalpel and carved this verse out of the bible with absolutely NO reference to its context (and evidently no understanding of its context either)...you did at least read the next verse, didn't you?? the verse you referenced: And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. (acts 10:25) the next verse: But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. (acts 10:26) if you noticed, peter REBUKED this!... peter did NOT allow worship to be directed toward himself! your mentioning of this verse doesn't tell me that anything is wrong with my conclusions; it tells me something is wrong with your method of studying scriptures which has led to an error in your conclusions! now, if you go back and read the 11 occurences where Jesus is worshipped in the gospels, you will find that NO WHERE does Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshipping HIM... Jesus was a bold man... He most definitely would have spoken up against this if He considered it wrong... (why do you think he didn't?) or do YOU prefer to ignore these 11 verses! as i just pointed out, NO WHERE was this ever discouraged by Jesus! check out the 11 verses and see what Jesus says and does after He is worshipped... in fact, in one place He says, "all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth" (that doesn't sound like He is discouraging anything) yep, and twi was a MOST RELIGIOUS organization...twi had MORE rules and regulations than the RC church... complete with the same hierarchal structure... twi also had a pope-like figure who was the world's spokesman for God... (talk about religious) not sure what you are referring to... just what exactly do you think that Jesus asked me to do that i refused to do?? as for the "proper order", Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. you cannot know God unless you know His Son, Jesus... evidently, there are MANY people who call Jesus "Lord" BUT really do NOT know Him... and neither does He know them... i can't think of a more tragic situation than for people to think they are "born-again" and know Jesus when they in fact do NOT... (this is a very serious thing) whitedove, you have mentioned this hand-waving thing repeatedly... do you equate hand-waving with "worship"... or worship with "hand-waving"?? i personally have never practiced "hand-waving"... and yet, i most definitely believe that Jesus is worthy of my worship and adoration! and i worship, love, and adore HIM! peace, jen-o p.s. if you knew Jesus, you would worship Him!

lucy, this method of "correction/discipline" is all very foreign to me... as a kid, i was NEVER hit (and neither were my brothers and sisters) actually, i was hit ONE time (a single slap) by my father when i was about 8-years-old... (for messing around and pushing on the back of his knees, which caused him to lose his balance) and it was kinda like am impulsive reaction by him ... i ran upstairs crying... and he IMMEDIATELY came up and apologized to me... none of my family members are into this "hitting" thing... and we don't hit our kids either... i am really sorry for all the abuse that went on in twi... peace and hugs, jen-o

i have been a single mom since 1994... my 3 boys are all teenagers now, but allow me to brag on them for a little bit... yesterday, they came home with a chicken dinner (complete with all the fixins) and one of those giant (pizza-size) chocolate chip cookies that had "#1 mom" written across it in icing... they brought me a dozen long stem roses, with some wine coolers, and music (a homemade CD of "mama" songs of the bluesy-rap variety)... the card they gave me said that i was "the glue" that held the family together... and then they gave me a top of the line, state of the art, digital still camera (that also takes movies, i think)... it's called a sony cyber-shot... :~) i love my kids! hugs to all, jen-o

whitedove, then he was very fortunate (in this category, anyway)... but that doesn't mean that other people didn't experience something else... btw, you say that your son didn't remember anyone being "beaten to almost unconsciousness"... but does he remember anyone being beaten (as in being beaten with a wooden spoon)?? during the last roa i attended (95 or 96), i walked by a pop-up camper and heard a woman inside repeatedly hitting a baby with what sounded like a wooden spoon... it sounded like a very young baby (under a year old)... and the woman kept telling the baby to go to sleep while repeatedly hitting the baby with the spoon, upon which the baby would start crying and the cycle would start over again... quite frankly, i was horrified... what person IN THEIR RIGHT MIND would put a small baby to sleep in a new environment in the midst of all the noise at the roa (it was about 7pm... and the camper was in a busy location)... and EXPECT the baby to just drop off to sleep... and further EXPECT that hitting the baby would get her to go to sleep faster... i ask you, whitedove, do you consider THIS abuse?... or do you think that this is in line with "typical/common" child-rearing practices in twi?? btw, i later found out that this was the wife of my new LC... and these people advocated this style of "parenting" to the whole limb... and you know how people are expected to "follow" leadership... [but bride has explained all of this already... i.e. why different areas had different child-rearing practices] no one is invalidating YOUR experiences, so why do you find it necessary to invalidate the experiences of others? peace, jen-o

it's pointless to talk to you, whitedove... you invent what you want to believe... you think my emotions are getting in the way of my vision?!? and why did you invent this scenario? are you more comfortable with the thought that i am overly emotional, and therefore, just can't possibly think rationally about the topic of "abusive" child-rearing practices of twi? do you REALLY think that i have any emotional residue from an event that happened over 10 years ago... which event i have not even thought about IN YEARS!... ROFLMAO further, you make an assumption about an event you have NO details about... just fyi, i was NOT the emotional one concerning my rejection of their "abusive practices"; THEY were!... i merely told them: "i'm not going to do THAT" and THEY became unglued (probably due to the fact that they were not used to anyone rejecting their advice, um, orders)... c'est la vie... so regarding my "emotions", therein is NOT the problem... peace, jen-o p.s. maybe you thought i was emotional because i used all caps on a couple of words (that's for EMPHASIS, whitedove... it's NOT due to emotion... in fact, when i am using my webtv, it's the only way i can emphasize anything) p.p.s. you never did answer the question: do you have ANY children? (as you can tell, i am on my webtv right now)

strong's says more than that.. however, are you telling me that your refusal to worship Jesus includes this definition of "kiss the hand"?... in other words, you don't think that Jesus deserves "the kiss of your hand"?!? wow, whitedove, that's just incredible that you would admit that Jesus does not deserve the 'kiss the hand" worship (as noted by the definition you provided) you really think you know Jesus, huh? (or do you just use his name as a tagline at the end of a prayer with the intent of getting whatever you want... because afterall, you fulfilled the twi rule/requirement of adding "in the name of Jesus Christ" to the end of your prayer and now God HAS to do whatever you say (in your mind anyway)... yeah right, you know Jesus real well... "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (matt. 10:33) i really don't know what your point is, whitedove, about the word "proskuneo" (verb form) the word "proskuneo" is used for BOTH worship of God the Father AND worship of Jesus... as in john 4:23: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers (proskunetes) shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship (proskuneo) him." you think these "worshippers" are just kissing God's hand?? in any case, what's your point? the scriptures show God receiving "proskuneo" worship... AND the scriptures show Jesus receiving "proskuneo" worship you say you worship God, but you deny the worship of His Son... how can you possibly know the Father if you don't know the Son?

yep, just keep chopping up and dissecting the bible like a good little wafer... isn't that what you were taught?: that whole chunks of the Word of God just don't apply to you... in fact, what DOES apply to you?... i know vpw taught that the old testament and the gospels did not... and he didn't know a thing about the book of revelation... so what's left? the 7 church epistles AND a whole lot of vpw's OPINION... (well, that's gonna get you far) keep mocking, whitedove... you think God is gonna praise you for your continual mocking of Jesus... (what a rude awakening you are gonna have) every knee will bow TO JESUS, whitedove... how dense can you be? (and are you just ignoring all the verses in the gospels regarding worship of Jesus??) oops, i forgot; the gospels don't apply to you... just pick and choose the scriptures you like (or did vpw pick them for you?) indeed, there will definitely be some splaining to do when people have to explain why they chose to worship vpw and his organization of doctrinal error and disgusting practices instead of Jesus the Messiah... you think God is gonna praise you for that?... that you chose a lecherous old man and his organization over His Son...

you sure about that, whitedove?? whitedove, you continue to mock Jesus and the worship of Jesus... (this is probably the only thing that will ever upset me on a message board) just who do you think The Shepherd is? and what do you think the job of a shepherd is?? let me clue you in... the job of a shepherd is to take care of the sheep by PROTECTING them from danger! and one of the basic ways you PROTECT people-sheep is to WARN them about danger! there are MANY wolves in the world... it is not just the PHYSICAL BODY of a wolf (like vpw) that Jesus PROTECTS us from... but more importantly, the DOCTRINE & TEACHINGS of the WOLVES! and yet, you continue to mock who Jesus is and what Jesus does... you don't think Jesus deserves worship? all i can say is: every knee is gonna bow! (your knees, too, whitedove) you are the perfect example of twi mindset that relegates Jesus to some secondary status... twi did NOT know Jesus!! (i can't emphasize this enough) without Jesus, twi was a worthless organization of dissecting the bible and following men and their opinions! IF you want to know Jesus, you are NOT going to find HIM in the error-filled doctrine of twi's mad prophet vpw (or any of his devoted trainees) THIS is the basic WARNING about twi... you think you're born again because you repeated the words in romans 10:9,10; you might as well have said abracadabra IF you don't understand what those words mean (i.e. understand the REASON WHY Jesus came to earth & what exactly HE accomplished) AND IF you NEGLECT REPENTANCE... 2 basic things that twi truly avoided (ESPECIALLY REPENTANCE)... i don't think anyone got born again at all due to twi!... if anyone did get born again, it was IN SPITE OF twi not BECAUSE OF twi... and you don't think people should be WARNED about this? and you think it is okay to mock Jesus and those that worship HIM? (you probably think more highly of vpw and twi than you do the Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah... when do you ever defend Him? but i sure see you run to the defense of twi and its doctrine and practices... while you continue to mock Jesus... btw, perhaps you should check out the word "worshipped" in the gospels before you mock the worship of Jesus again... of the 13 occurences, 11 times the word "worshipped" is used in connection with worshipping Jesus (from those who worshipped Him at His birth right up until the apostles worshipped Him as He ascended into heaven)... as well as in Rev. 5:14 when Jesus is worshipped as The Lamb... every knee WILL bow!

really??... maybe you should inform God about this, whitedove... seeing as how God Himself thought that it was soo important to warn people that HE continually sent WATCHMEN (throughout the old testament as well as present day) who have taken this job on as a LIFE MISSION... or perhaps, you don't think that God knows what HE is doing... p.s. i guess that those who were called to be watchmen (by GOD) must have been stuck in a rut (by whitedove's logic)