mchud11

I may not be capable of providing a quote, you know, search engines, effort, best left for someone younger...BUT.. My pet peeve, was the "spiritual rewards" stuff. TWI felt to me to be a hotbed of bible quotations by others to me with scripture and verse (reproof and correction), motivated by the bearers belief/conviction that "spiritual rewards" were to follow. Top that off with the concept of "mental assent" and viola...you don't have a conversation or education, you have intimidation..an environment of pure knowledge/wisdom.correctness, being given to the receiver as if the scripture was going to save my life someday. So where are these individuals today, the Corp Grads that supposed made a lifetime committment to "Christian Service"? I am here, where are they?

Happy Birthday, Kevlar, I can tell you, being 55 myself, that it all starts going downhill after 54...foods do not taste the same, more runs to the restroom, and discretionary income is a thing better left to the 25 year olds..

Yo, Waysider, I am merely a simple country guy, so I am not familiar with "big city" slang, would you clue me in on "bums' rush", I would enjoy getting in on the joke...oh, wait, I have the internet..ok, I will look it up... **** fourteen seconds later******** Ok, waysider, I got it...ya, that is a good one. I like that, thanks.

Thanks Twinky. TWI was really to me, a very intense experience. I went into TWI with virtually no set of skills, job wise, world wise, and so on. I did feel as though I was dealing with an organization that was honest, what happened during those years was more like experiencing a "do it yourself ministry" by which I mean that TWI turned out to be a ministry that really had nothing physical, they did have a clue about things spiritual, after all, I did learn how to speak in tongues, yet the physical side, that is getting something accomplished was a constant stuggle, and for me, dire poverty. I spent a great deal of alone time after the real separation with the ministry. If I had to do those separation years over again, I think I would have gotten into some counseling, yet I have no regrets about not getting counselling, due to the fact that over the years I have read so many, many books on cults, abuse, and on and on, and it still doesn't appear to me that any counselling during that time would have been "the answer" due to the lack of availability of competent counselors, per se. In other words, it is my belief that the TWI experience was so unusual, that the only real counselors are other individuals who have successfully moved on from TWI. If I was telling someone who just left TWI what would be the first best book to read, it would be Victor Frankls book "Mans Search For Meaning", which is the account of survival in and out of a Nazi concentration camp. It is an excellent example of man's capability to come back from isolation, abuse, all of the extremes..

Yes, TWI was way, way into the "grace" thing with regard to sexual matters. My WOW brother engaged in some "peeping" with my WOW sister on the field, toward the end of the WOW year and I did not learn of it til 2 years later. Nothing even hinted of it or pointed to it, was not discussed, or mentioned while I was on the field, that would be my only personal, or closest brush with sexual abuse in TWI. After TWI, I have read account after account of sexual abuse in TWI, and almost all of it happened way above my level of association in TWI, like HQ, and Branch Leaders, State Coordinators and its very shocking, still is shocking. Although, the grace concept, ignore it, live in love, and move on concept with regard to these matters was in force for the most part, there were exceptions and I saw one in FLO, were two young people had done some "petting" that involved touching and removing clothes, and they were sent home. In bringing this back to the umbrella of the topic and thread, I would say that the CF&S Class fell into TWI's notion to "endeavor" to rightly divide the Word, but I feel they, TWI, never really consistently reached or applied the "endeavor" mindset or goal, some individuals did, but as a whole..I don't feel that way.

It wouldn't surprise me that LCM used the would "need" with regard to men and this 72 hour subject, in my opinion, a better way of putting it is that when you are 18 - 30something men feel "pressure" or "discomfort" after 72 hours without having sexual relations or self-stimulation. I am 55 so I have been there. There are a lot of books on Christian Marriage that go into the subject, far better than TWI did, and their position on it is that a part of the responsibility of a wife is to be aware of the physical differences between men and women, and yes, it goes the same for husbands (being aware of the physical, emotion, and mental differences of the sexes). One of the best books on marriage, I have read, is "Kosher Sex", a book written by a Rabbi, and its focus for the most part is the relationship, not the physical act itself.. Another example of the extreme differences between men and women is that men are far, far more visual as far as stimulation, than women. Some women upon being aware of this, even have extreme reactions, like disgust at the notion of its existence. In closing, I would note that women inherently are better communicators than men, the left side and the right side of their brain is physically far better connected than men. In my own life, I have spent a great deal of time in learning HOW to communicate and HOW to listen, due to this specific capability of women. michael

Still a pretty good discussion going on in the thread. Some of it is more like debate and thats all good with me. One thing I felt that has come up recently, and I thought I would put my memory in about it is that there was that one part where I believe Doctor talked about married couples, in some sort of context of counselling was the couple having difficulties...and Doctor counselled both of them, telling the man to "cool" it a bit and the woman to "enjoy it a little more".. I really do not recall feeling put off about any of what has been described here as "soft porn" or "porn" or in that context. The word porn is in the eye of the beholder, unless we are talking about "obscenity", which has a legal standard to my knowledge, that body of law, case law, including Supreme Court rulings, but then again I do acknowledge that "porn" could well be a term, that legal standand, local or state, that has to do with adult material, that is restricted to an age minimum, age of majority... So, the bottom line, with regard to my opinion, is that the dog, bestiality subject, area, in the class, didn't seem to have any point to it...and I have another example of that: Howard Yeremian, in an FLO teaching, and I do not recall what context that teaching was in, announced, delved into telling us FLOers, that the most recent video going on in "adult theaters" was men beating up prostitutes...and at the time, I felt wierd hearing that, because I was thinking at the time, what does that have to do with the bible. Now it may be that he was pointing out how the world was getting spiritually darker and darker, but if that was Yeremian's point, it did not come across that way to me at the time... I really can't recall, adult-like material some of the postings referred to, nudity, or naked pictures of women, along that line in CF&S..I do remember retaking the class in Washington State, many years after taking it in FLO and the instructor had a center fold of Playboy, held it up and sort of said "is this was sex was all about"...and then proceeded to tell the class that the paper Playboy centerfolds are printed on is some sort of special paper, a paper that has a feeling when you touch it, more like the feeling of touching human skin....So, what I am getting to with this is that TWI, came up with these details, from time to time, in teachings that went well beyond a sense of normal in order to drive home their, TWI's expertise and competency in areas in order to "convince us". And of course, it only worked for a short period of time, here we are laughing at them for these silly stunts.

Thanks, I will definitely delve into this thread...

I do appreciate everyone saying whats on their mind. With a board like GSC, keeping the subject on point is a good thing, but not a required thing, to me, its all good, even if that means a brainful of details. May I go back to something sexier? Like anal sex. It anal sex thing, as I remember it was only briefly mentioned and it was in the context that Doctor thought believers might/would "try" it, once or twice, but it was "off the Word". I do not recall oral sex being specifically mentioned. And last, I don't recall if the concept of sexual boundaries, as far as practices between married couples came up. A couple years ago, I read some book that talked about sexual boundaries and the idea they expressed was that if one of a married partners felt uncomfortable with a sexual practice, that the other married partner wanted to do, then like biblically and common sense wise, the practice is "off the table" so to speak. To me, the concept validates the equality of married partners, still fits within that concept of a married man being the head of the household and the wife...but I can't remember whether that was in the CF&S class...michael

Waysider, you really have always come across to me as a real "gentleman", intelligent, responsive, focused..and I do not mean this as false flattery, or lip service. I do read as many of your posts as possible, its very much appreciated. Your response, very much indicates to me, some genuine honesty, it all makes sense, its all validating. I think that GSC, has a great deal of value for folks, its like we having been associated with TWI are a distinct community of individuals. michael

The one liner I like is that one about fear and approaching a man of God... It was like if you had fear you wouldn't/couldn't approach a man of God, and conversely that you approach a man of God having/possessing confidence. Comparing what I was in TWI and the last say ten years of my life, I would say that I feel that I must surely have a great deal more self-confidence, or belief in my own self worth now. I have had a few conversations with John S. and J. Lynn and M. Graser and I do not recall feeling uncomfortable with any of those experiences. I think that if I had LCM's home number, I would most likely call him and be confrontational...that is, that process of getting to the truth of a matter, as in "Craig, did you or did you not sexually assault women at HQ"? michael

Warning - caffeinated beverage in hand- Folks, I thought I would bring up another experience from my TWI days, for the hell of it, see what you think, what you experienced. I was in Nashville, TN in 1974. There was a lot of concern about deprogrammers. TWI, to my memory was emphaziing this trend in the country about deprogrammers. The facts as relayed to me, though teaching tapes (HQ - Sunday night), and I believe a tape sent "exclusively" to the WOW's on the field focused on deprogramming. TWI was saying deprogramming, a bunch of it was going on in the country, mostly with regard to "other" organizations in the U.S., but there was some real concern with regard to deprogramming spilling over to TWI. And there may have even been an example or two or three with regard to someone/some TWI folks getting kidnapped/deprogrammed....my memory just isn't clear enough on the details. Anyway, at that point in my life, if Dr. Wierwille said something, I took it all in. And I definitely remember believing, or convincing myself that the resistance my family had to me being involved/associated with TWI, dropping out of college, ect...well, equalled my family being set on kidnapping me. Doctor said it, so it applied to me, and I was very frightened.. So, Doctor's influence on me, on the WOW field, during Christmas of 1974, where HQ had given permission to everyone in the WOW program to "go home" for Christmas, have a break from the field, whatever, meant to me, that I had no where to go...no where.. I accepted the fact that going home meant facing deprogramming, so I chose to go to HQ for Christmas. Le Ella Danielson and I went up to HQ for Christmas, drove up there in her car. And we had actually been invited, the invitation was on a tape, I believe part of a Sunday Night HQ tape... The long and the short of it was that I got invited into Doctors office and Mr. Glick was there and Doctor was reviewing/listenning to an edit of a new Way Productions album to be released. And in the dining room, at the meals, I watched Doctor and LCM. I remember LCM being a real "firecracker", in that he was on the phone, calling people to get them into the PFAL Class. And last, but not least, I went into to town, New Knowville, and John Townsend and like 40 or 50 believers were sitting on the ground, not enough chairs, for like a Way coffee house type meeting in a building I think that used to be an old church that I was under the impression that TWI had purchased... And back to Nashville. So, how many of you can relate to this sort of mind set that I feel I took without any real evidence, or confirmation outside of TWI (like the news or newspaper) ? michael

I met Bob at a TWI Family Camp in OHIO..I was there for the Intermediate Class. And he impressed me as being a professional, that is, in my part time job, working for a Doctor in a medical clinic, at my age, I had really met few people who were professionals, like suit and tie, look neat and nice and so on. Bob came across as a real person, great man, leader, the works. I talked to him a few times over the first 3 or 4 years I was associated with TWI...and then the separation of many years....and oh, some 7, maybe 10 years ago, I called HQ and asked where Bob M was and I was told Florida....and I wrote him a letter, sent it to HQ for forwarding, as they wouldn't give me his address over the telephone...anybody know anything ? michael

Thanks to everyone who has been contributing to the thread. I have read the majority of the posts, that is to say, I followed the two other threads posted, one in 2003 and one in 2008. I have gotten through, I think the high points (22 pages) on one. Anyway, I have never had a problem, that is I "feel" I have never had a problem bringing up controversy...SO, how about I add into all this that teaching, assertion, by TWI that abortion, the option for abortion by a believer is her business...that is that a fetus is not alive, soul life, until it draws its first breath.. If I have not written this absolutely correct, my apologies, however, it is a clear memory to me that TWI supported a believers "right" to chose to carry a fetus to full term or have an abortion. And it was not that they were condoning abortion, I mean, it was in the context that there are consequences to a woman having an abortion, common sense, but it was a believers "right", as in not a sin against God, a choice, and that being because life begins when breathing on its own begins.....anybody, and everybody...whats on your mind... And the subject is what TWI said, I was not meaning to start a right/wrong discussion, although, yes, I most likely will be ignored on that... michael

The Windows 7 Beta I got was right off the Microsoft Web site. What I did, was go to control panel, admin tools, get to the disk (hard disk - storage) and "shrink" my main partition, in order to create a new partition (oh, I did like 19 gig). In other words, I did not do an upgrade, over my existing Vista, merely installed Windows 7 into a new partition, so when the PC starts, I get a dual boot choice, Windows 7 or Vista....you do have to burn a DVD for this install...that is the file you download is an .iso and IMGBURN (a free product) will do the job, that is extract/burn a DVD, no problem. With my pc, the install took no time at all. Windows 7 I have not messed with too much yet, but it is definitely not as annoying as Vista...the beta is good til like September 9. In doing the install you do have to type in a product code, but you get that when you download the beta from Microsoft... michael

I took the CFS class the first year of my Fellowlaborers of Ohio experience. I am still not clear on the date, but that would be 1974 or 1975. For me, TWI was an experience where I felt that being myself and completely honest was the way to go. And so, during one of the session breaks I stated during the twig, that I mastrabated. At that time, I am thinking mastrabation along the frequency of say, once every 5 or 6 weeks, something along those lines. I said that I felt guilty about it. And I recall one woman asking me, "you mean in the shower"? And I did not respond. And I remember some short statement about "oh, even married people mastrabate". I think TWI was an environment that I always felt like letting my guard down. Its not too hard, I feel to understand that. How many times I recall Doctor Wierwille going into details about the individuals he counseled and the details of the issues individuals brought to him. For instance that story about the woman who had breasts that were different sizes, a very common thing, yet the way he wrapped up his concern in it, and came across as the sincerest, common man alive who really cared about people, certainly inspired the following to drop ones guard. And the story about the guy at the Advanced Class whos wife was sick in the hospital and he mastrabated at the Way College of Emporia. That part of CFS where Doctor sort of suggests that women get familar with their genitals, also comes to mind, that if they were not familar with themselves that they should get a mirror and take a good look. This stuff was in the vein that some women have to work at experiencing their first orgasm, which is accurate, I am not saying its common, but again, pointing out that Doctor was really a master at being the honest, down home teacher, who was imparting knowledge and wisdom to individuals, bringing to light many subjects that may have never been talked about or thought about in our lives. The Tree of Life, I wrote a letter to Doctor Wierwille, during my involvement and asked him what it was and he wrote back and told me that he did not know. The original sin around 1974-1976, whatever, was Eve mastrabated in the garden of Eden. I talked with John S. of CES and he felt that Doctor's interpretation was not accurate. I have read a book about the Sin of Adam, which is excellent, that sin, being "silence". I remember, pretty vividly that women were in a sense to be placed on a pedestal, in the sense of respected and I do feel that is appropriate. My feeling is, that of all of God's creation, womankind is God's masterpiece, however, while involved in TWI, I don't ever recall having a teaching on the subject, it could have been taught, maybe I wasn't listenning, but I do not recall it. Anyway, just these thoughts for the moment, I may add something else later...excellent question...excellent question for discussion... michael

Wow, am I up on a caffeinated beverage. Er...I was thinking of something else on "learning". The Intro: I was living in West Hollywood. A quarter million dollar, one bedroom condo, situated between Hollywood Blvd. and Sunset Blvd ( a Condo that was appreciating at 10K per month in value). My next door neighbor was the academy nominated actor: Robert F. (for best supporting actor - Jackie Brown). My wife and I had underpaid our federal income tax. I opted for protection with that set of IRS statues that allow paying ten cents on the dollar. You see that sort of claim by companies on the television all the time. What they do not tell you is that you do really pay back one dollar on the dollar, its just that the settlement allows you to pay ten cents on the dollar, the remainder is not at interest or penalty, but the IRS gets a lien on your home or whatever of value you have...anyway, I did the process myself. What happened in a period of a bit under three years still amazes me today. What I did was follow the rules. I read all the Federal Statues on those aspects of the law, i.e. my obligations to the IRS and the IRS's obligations to me. I followed the rules, the IRS did not. I made a telephone call to the IRS agent who was the supervisor for that particular Department in Los Angeles, actually many calls. What became apparent, was that I was dealing with an incompetent Federal Employee. I finally said to her in a voice mail, to get off her foot and obey Federal Statues, instead, she called the Inspector Generals office for the IRS...this would be what is called, the IRS police force, Federal Officers who job it is to prosecute tax evasion, fraud, threats made against IRS agents....within a week, a Federal Officer was at my place of employment wanting to talk to me. We had a four of five minute interview. I did not back down. About two years later, after the Federal Government provided me all the documents, as required under the Freedom of Information Act...almost everything came together...the frosting on top of the cake, was an article by a Deputy Director of the IRS, who at an IRS conference held at UCLA had been interviewed by the Los Angeles Times with regard to incompetence in following Federal Statues in "Offers of Compromise"..that is that process I started with the IRS to pay my back taxes. The FOI request, that big stack of documents the Federal Goverment had to give me, showed a botched investigation into my background, inaccuracies that would allow me to sue the Federal Government for damages....the problem was...what were the damages...unless they were in excess of 15 or 20 thousand dollars, it was a waste of time... The bottom line is that I was accurate, from the start, the IRS failed to obey those rules established by Congress...call it me being right, whatever...I did not, however WIN...its was only keeping my head above water... The Stuff I Am Learning (with this experience considered) Assertiveness is critical to survival. Its not necessary to argue with anyone, it is necessary to be assertive with everyone. If required, that is, if you have been assertive, said "this is how I feel" or "this is my opinion" and you perceive you are not being listened to, understood, validated....say it again, say it again, say it again, as if you are a record player, if you need to change a few words, fine, just say your point over and over again...compromising at this point means certain failure... In other words a conversation means communication between two or more parties, if you have done your homework, communicated your idea properly, simply and directly to another party, well the ball is in their hands...anything that diverts from them having the ball means "the record player"...they get the record player until the conversation ends...that is they walk away, they give up, or they do the "right thing" and act or behave like an adult... Have a good one.. michael chudzinski

Although some/many may disagree with me, I feel the question is best asked as "what are you learning"? The Intro: I don't feel my life really started or got moving in a coherent direction until some five or six years after being all but on the fringe(s) of the ministry. One of the true indicators that I was no longer willing to accept compromises that I was not comfortable with happened in Litchfield Park, Arizona. That would be somewhere around 1987 or 1988. I called the ministry and lied, telling them I wanted to meet with the Arizona Limb Leader. I prepared a sign on a stick that said "Learn How to Abuse Others - associate with The Way". I took my sign along with me to the Limb Leader's home and walked up and down the front of his driveway during the day, like in the road in front of his home. The neighbor across the street saw me and I believe called the Limb Leaders phone. The LL came out and sort of yelled out, from a distance, "come on in", motioning for me to come into his home. I ignored him and continued walking. In around ten minutes the police arrived, the policeman offerred to let me go, if I would drive off. I refused. I was taken into custody and delivered to the Pima County jail, where I spent the night in custody. The charge was: picketing in a residential area. The seriousness of the offense is just below that of having a smoky muffler. Anyway, it went to trial and the LL cried and wept throughout the short procedure/trial. I was fined 150 dollars or so. I paid the fine off at the rate of 5 dollars a month (the minimum allowed by the court). During this period of my life, say 1984 to 1989, I continued to focus on personal computing. The focus was not due in any part to that ministry idea or statement or attitude TWI had kicked around for years, namely that if you left the ministry, like were kicked out of the Way Corps, or got divorced after being married by TWI, that it was in your best interest to "figure out what you were going to do with the rest of your life". Its merely that being in a position of TWI not having an influence on me, I made decisions entirely on my feelings, interests, goals, ect. My life became more and more goal-oriented. I found myself accomplishing many tasks and using skills I did not really know that I possessed. By 1993, I was working as a contractor in Redmond, Washington, working at locations such as: Midisoft, Microsoft, and Wall Data. By 1995, I was earning 47K per year, working in Silicon Valley. Three years passed and I was earning 67K. What I am learning: All we can do is influence others. All we ever have is an opinion. Perception is everything. Unless we have a gun to our head, the word "threatened" is nevera an accurate descriptor, the word "promised" is the descriptor, I.E. "he threatened me with a lawsuit", no, he promised you a lawsuit. I may feel threatened, I.E. the potential for harm, but the term threatened only applys to criminal acts against our person. Say what I mean and mean what I say. There are compromises I can live with and there are compromises I cannot life with. Knowing the difference is wisdom. When people say I have to do this, or they say that I made them do that....I say, I don't have to do anything and I tell them I did not have a gun to their head, so how about growing up and being an adult. I endeavor to say "I feel this way", "it is my opinion that", "I understand you to have said..." Sorry is not a word. If someone says "I am sorry", I say, no, if what you mean is "you apologize", then say so, I feel the word "sorry" is an indicator that you have failed to take personal responsibility for the mistake/error... Fair is a concept. That fairness exists in the employer - employee relationship is the height of stupidity. Words only have meaning with regard to the understanding of the bearer. Almost all words have "wiggle room". Ask Bill Clinton, per Bill.."it depends on what your meaning of is is". Allow no one to libel, slander, or defame your character. There are times when it is best to be quiet and there are times to speak your mind assertively. It is essential to know what a boundary is and what a barrier is when interacting with others. Setting boundaries and barriers with others is a healthy, essential, and required skill. Eight or nine decisions/actions out of ten others make are based on emotion, not logic. Confrontation is the process of "finding out the truth of a matter". It is lonely at the top. Most people, as Winston Churchhill said "live in a grey twilight". END OF THE RANT--- If you want more, I could go on for another couple of pages... regards...Michael Chudzinski

I have a lock of LCM's hair and one of his tattered Oklahoma State football jerseys, anybody, any idea on what they might be worth on Ebay ?

Great intro Seveo, you sound like a muli-talented individual...thanks

Thanks, Cman. I will install this, definitely. A few years ago, I used Opera extensively. Testing and messing about is one of my passions...michael

Thanks for the replys. Yes, Mozilla/Firefox is hard to beat. michael

I checked out the web site. The biggest flash back for me was the list of the four goals, purpose, summary, whatever of SOWERS. I know very little about the grandson, my opinion is, that the grandson, most likely has a real uphill battle, as in the possibility of success of the program, something of value being produced by the participants. At worst, I would say a train wreck ready to happen. The dysfunctionality of it all, thats my perception.

Ya know, Vista is a bit annoying. And Windows 7 is in the pipeline. Well, where I am is being dragged along with Internet Explorer 8 beta 1. It was like a day after I upgraded my IE, that IE just gets flaky, real flaky. And its not like you can uninstall it, that is what is required to install IE 8 Beta 2.. So, I am ranting, letting you know my experience and maybe you can relate to it. IE 8 on my pc freezes. ya cant close it, let alone minimize it, Vista handles a "not responding" with little resources being tied up, yet it feels like a bit to long to close it down. My first response was to get another browser up to ensure I had an avenue to the Internet... Anyway, I have had issues with the inflexibility of IE over some period of years. I would love to see some of us G'Spotters experience with IE..michael

Thanks. Yes, you reminded me of the size of their family. Thanks for the recommendation...michael