Watered Garden

It's silly because it allows the "forgivee" to still have power over you if you're waiting for them to make the first move. "Forgive your enemies - it'll drive them crazy!"

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! And I like Eph 4:32: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. There is indeed freedom in forgiving - the anger and pain and loss are no longer there. The chains are broken. Thank you so much for posting this. WG

Awww...that's such a sweet memory. That was one time I felt like we got it right. I thought we would have to stamp "toyota" or "Volkswagen" on somebody's rear end to get me to work. We lived in that little apartment on top of a hill on Columbus Road and every morning we slid down to where we'd parked then drove in. The morning they closed OU, Mr. Garden had worked most of the night, couldn't get close to home and slept in the car on North Sandusky until the road crews made him move the car. It was not a fun time and probably sealed my dislike of winter weather for good.

Not offended at all, just a bit of explanation. Cheers!

Sounds like a taste of hell to me.

What Broken Arrow said!

Sorry, Twinky, it's just not my thing. I do like boating, swimming, long walks, etc. My second year if FLO, we had a particularly nasty winter with temperatures below 0 degrees F. for a couple of weeks. The lame-butt limb leader decided a night of frolicking in the snow was in order and had a couple of his minions track paths down a hill and then dump water on them. This of course froze and then we, having worked a full day at some secular job or other, were "invited" to slide on garbage bags down the hill. Someone took out a young peach tree Mr. Garden had planted the previous spring, sliding right into it and snapping it in half. The next Saturday after a work day, the creek behind the limb HQ was also frozen and folks were playing ice hockey on it, sliding around with red half frozen faces. I chose to stay inside; and was dragged over the limb leader's office and REPROVED for not enjoying being outside freezing my bum off, and COMMANDED by the Man of God for the State of Ohio for that day and for that time and for that hour to GET OUT THERE AND ENJOY MYSELF! Fortunately by the time I got all my winter outdoor clothes on the game was over and I could eat lunch and go home. So I don't take very kindly to someone telling me I "have no sense of fun" because I don't like freezing my butt off. There are more ways than one to have fun, my friend.

I clicked on a link and it was blocked by Spyware Doctor. Might have a nasty bug implanted by the TWIsters to punish unbelievers for looking at it askance. WG

Nice place, I guess. I still don't like winter, even though in FLO I was once forced to frolic in snow and ice at about -5 degrees. Never have liked it and have trouble pretending. WG

Trefor - you're back!

Dear Roy, I am so sorry that you suffered as a child because of the ignorance and laziness of a teacher who left the classroom to smoke. I know it's true there are some lousy teachers out there, but there are some who genuinely love what they do and love their students. My husband and many of my friends are teachers you would be proud to have had teach you. If they caught someone bullying a student they would put a swift stop to it. And, none of them smoke. The public school system is flawed, but here and there it shines like a diamond. May God bless you and heal your heart from the wounds those teachers allowed to be put there. WG

And letters from WC you sponsored always seemed to begin something like "Greetings and Salutations in the wonderful, tremendous Name of Jesus Christ, our living Lord and risen Savior. I am exceedingly abundantly blessed by your faithful partnership with me..." yada yada yada. By the time you got through all the flowery phrasing you finally realized the poor soul just needed more money. The later ones were especially sad. All the flowery language and cliches referred to LCM, not Jesus.

Back in the day, everything was "tremendous." I think there was some motivational speaker named Charlie "Tremendous" Jones? Absolutely everything was tremendous... "I got my car tuned up and it gets 25 miles to the gallon. Isn't that tremendous?" "Our twig went witnessing at the mall. We had a tremendous time."

I think about those trials when before the convicted killer is sentenced, the victim's relatives have a chance to tell him and the whole court what hurt he caused. Maybe it'll be like that. Maybe you'll get to stand before the Judge of Judges and tell all the saints what hurt, what harm, what theft of innocence occurred.

And I about yours, Exxie. Look, we both have visited the brook Cherith and were sustained, and came out stronger than before. We are survivors. We will not allow these bastards to define us.

I was pretty speechless myself. No "are you feeling better?" or "Thank God your husband got you to the ER when he did." Just, "you would make the ministry look bad." And this guy's wife was the one who changed the subject every time I had told her I didn't feel well and needed to know if she knew a good doctor in the area. She was just sooooo spiritual, I figured if I needed a doctor God would tell her to quit interrupting me with stories of how perfect her children were and give me the name of a physician. Unfortunately, she was just a self-absorbed idiot who built herself up by tearing me down. Keep in mind, this all happened after we had left FWC and I had been told we were failures because I was insufficiently under my husband's subjection and not nearly as submissive as I should be. So pile a chronic disease on top of that little tidbit of information, and I was ready to be hanged, drawn, racked and quartered for my sin. In September, 1994, shortly after the ROA, LCM opens a Sunday night tape with another portentous statement: "If you have chronic disease in your life, it is because you have chronic sin in your life." I knew he meant me, as well as the other dozen or so ROA attenders who ended up in the ER with diabetes complications. I was mortified. I still have trouble believing God still gives a rat's nose about me. TWI is not the only religious organization that teaches this, however. I've had plenty of experience with this dumb-butt doctrine and I will lob rocks at it until it crumbles in my own life and anyone else's who is afflicted by this BS. In regard to the title of this thread, I doubt if either of these folks or any of their four perfect, now mostly grown children ever look at GSC. If they do, they will know who I am and can apologize publicly or privately.

Plastic cards? Talk about hypocrisy!!!!! We put two airplane tickets and a car rental on a credit card because we didn't have enough time off to drive from Seattle to NK and were promptly put on spiritual probation, whatever the heck that meant. Under NO circumstances whatsoever were the people in that branch allowed to ever be in debt for anything, even medical treatment in an emergency room. You paid cash on the barrel head just like the Man of God said, or you did without. My then twig leader in 1994 told me I could have died (of untreated Type I diabetes) in the tent in the ROA "and that would have made the Ministry look bad." But then we get yelled at because we paid the hospital stay over time instead of in one lump sum, which we did not have. Then a year later, the TC's wife has surgery, demands I come over every day during her recuperation to clean her house to her and her children's exacting expectations, and tells a friend within our hearing that she and her husband charged the whole thing, hospital, lab fees, surgery, the whole nine yards OFF TO MEDICAID and didn't pay a dime. What the heck is wrong with this picture? Their only concern about my illness was that I could have made the ministry look bad by dying on grounds. We get bitched at because of the hospital bill, which we eventually paid in full, and then THEY, being WC grads, don't have to pay a dime for an expensive surgery and hospital stay. It was all about hypocrisy and woe be unto them at the judgment day. I'm no theologian but I can smell a load of BS 500 miles away. And they stunk to high heaven.

Oh, BA, I doubt you could top my last branch leader in WA, a graduate of WC 18 who worshipped LCM with a passion, in generalized jerkdom. It was he who wanted to stone our son to death, but the laws of the State of Washington forbid that sort of activity, even on religious grounds, at least for now.

FYI only no criticism intended: Bar mitzvah.

When someone tells me "everything happens for a reason" my response is frequently that sometimes the "reason" is that "dang happens." When I was diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes I was still "in." This wonderful woman called me up from Kentucky and said, "God told me to call you and tell you it's not your fault. You didn't do anything. We live in corruptible flesh while we are on this earth." Sometimes people die when we pray for them to live; we don't know why. I worked in a cancer hospital and the doctor I worked for treated children with radiation therapy. These kids were beautiful, bright, loving, and sometimes in spite of all the doctor's best efforts, they just didn't survive. I was really, really pi$$ed at God over that for a while. I was even more upset with the people who would say stuff like that rose petal in heaven crap. But I believe that when mankind fell, over time sin has permeated not only the earth, but also our very genetics. I do know one thing; God doesn't steal, kill, or destroy. That's Satan's gig. Does God micromanage every one of us with a "plan" for our lives? Nah, I don't think so in the sense your acquaintance is suggesting. III John 2 is part of His ideal for us, though. I'm sure of that.

I wrote about some of this on an old thread called 'Child Abuse in TWI' or something along those lines. One HFC actually suggested we take our son up into the mountains so far no one could hear his screams and take turns hitting him with a 2 x 4 until he understood if he did not submit to his parents, he would be taken back to that place and "just die there." In other words, kill him. This guy is spouse corps and his little wife is 6th WC. They are both legalistic and hard hearted. What did Jesus say about children? Did He recommend beatings and perhaps murder? I don't think so. I think He is appalled when a so-called Christian beats or abuses a child, or even suggests it. We did in fact clear debt by selling some stock we owned in a Fortune 100 company and then opened CD's with the remainder, which helped us get home after we left the Left Coast. Funny, we forgot to mention the stock was worth a good deal more than the debt we owed, so TWI couldn't get their scaly claws into it. Then, we were told it was not an option to attend ROA that year. We only had one week of vacation, not long enough to drive 2/3 the way across the country. So we flew and rented a car. We didn't actually attend too much of the ROA but spent time with our families instead. We registered for Word in Business and our finances were looked into (how they did that I never found out, but I suspect something illegal went on. It was discovered we had flown and rented the above and the stuff hit the fan. By the way, in case any of you newly freed do not already know this, TWI and the WayGB will cross the lines of legality to get the goods on you. A couple of months after I was diagnosed with IDDM in 1994, I received a call from a certain physician, loyal Wayfer, whose initials are JCZ. Dr. Z. informed me that all the medical records on all the ER visits and hospital admissions of individuals who had attended the ROA were given to him for review, including mine. He was verifying my diagnosis. I was surprised, but since I had known this guy at one time as a friend, I didn't think much about it until years later. Here's the deal: I did not sign a release of my medical records to him. I did not list him as my family physician. So how did he convince the hospital to give him my records? Did this go through channels or was a TWI-fer on staff who sneaked copies of everyone's medical records? I think 1994 is pre-HIPPA so I couldn't have sued the SOB. But at the very least it was extremely unethical and dishonest of him to have ALL THE RECORDS of everyone who was seen in the ER or admitted to the hospital in his possession without their knowledge or permission. I think TWI got him to do this to weed out the perceived weakness of the unwell and hold it against them. I think he is an unethical, dishonest jerk and I would certainly never let him so much as change a band-aid.

A bit off topic, but my dream vacation is at least two weeks and maybe a month in Alaska. Anything special I should see? I love Maine, too, but I've been there twice, and I do hope to go again. WG

Works for me, too, BA. And what a relief to be able to admit that I DON'T know that I know that I know that I know! I'm not a Calvinist, not at all. I just happened to have that one viewpoint saved from some research I did a while back.

I almost wonder if a certain minority of individuals who were attracted to the concept of being leaders weren't a bit on the sociopathic side. Certainly LCM, and probably VPW also. That narcissism, that "I'm the MOG and you must obey ME." What angers me most at myself is that these leaders took it upon themselves to basically replace Jesus Christ in our thinking, our actions, almost even our worship, and I was such a dumba@@ as to fall for it to an extent. After we left and moved back to Ohio, we continued to receive SNS tapes. I actually played one of them, to hear it START OUT with the portentous announcement by LCM himself, as if it were revelation straight from the great white throne (I'm sure some of you remember how he used to do that): "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OBEY GOD WITHOUT FIRST OBEYING YOUR LEADERSHIP!" A light went off in my tiny brain: I thought we were to obey God rather than men. And I finally realized that was the problem all along. These "Hurters" aka bustards were teaching there is no difference. They tried to steal me from my heavenly Father, but HE got me back, and He's never letting go! WG

Well, there are multiple viewpoints out there. I suggest you get a few of them, and make up your own mind (what a concept, eh? ) One viewpoint is that God is in control, BUT He allows things to happen as a result of our own free will. He could have stopped Eve from eating that fruit, whatever it may have been, but even though He knew in advance (because He is God, after all), He gives us freedom of will to choose to love and obey Him, reaping untold benefits, or go our own way, which ends in disaster. This viewpoint is called arminianism. Another point of view is Calvinism. Calvinism is best know for the TULIP acronym: Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin) Unconditional Election Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement) Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved) Total depravity simply means that man is in a state of sin and is unable to save himself through good works or anything else. Unconditional election means that God has "elected" or picked out a very few individuals throughout time to become saved and to spend all eternity with Him. These chosen few are called "the elect." Most of us are going to hell, because even if we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, we're not on the short list. Limited atonement means that Jesus died for the salvation of the elect, not for the world. Irresistible grace means that if you are one of the elect, you will respond to God's call. You will have a salvation experience, and you will be able thereafter to pinpoint the exact day, time, hour, setting when you repented of your sin and asked God to save you. If you cannot remember that exact moment, you just think you are saved and are not one of the elect. Perseverance of the Saints means you can't lose your salvation. I suspect these people you have been talking to are Calvinists of one sort or another. The pastor of the Calvinist church we used to attend does not believe in any of the manifestations of the spirit or especially that God heals you. He does not believe prayer does any good and we only pray for the sick because God commands it. We only witness because God commands it; witnessing does no good because God has already selected the chosen few and if you don't run across one of them you are just wasting oxygen when you witness. I have tried to be somewhat objective in my description. I don't consider myself to be any one theology or another. I am a Christian and a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is divinely inspired. Speaking of the Bible, I have a suggestion: get another version other than King James, if you haven't already. I like the New International Version and I like the Amplified Bible. The Message is written in plain English. There is a website called Biblegateway.com that you can look up a verse in many different versions and see which one suits you. Get one you find interesting, read it for yourself, and don't worry about making notes. It took me a while before I could see the page without Way-colored glasses, but when I did I found I still love God and guess what ? He still loves me, too! Anyway, there will probably be a few zillion opinions weighing in and you can take this for what I hope it is: an attempt to answer your question a little bit, but going around the world to do so. Is God in control? Well, yes, but like a loving Father, I believe He lets us trip over our own feet sometimes. We're studying Elijah at church this next few weeks. It's easy to see how Israel screwed up until there were very few people left who worshipped God. Isaiah is a great book to read, too. Read it for enjoyment; nobody's looking over your shoulder to make sure you "rightly divide it according to usage and in the glorious light of the present truth, etc etc etc." All the best and feel free to PM me if you like. WG PS: I have found there is a huge difference between obeying God and obeying the leadership of TWI. Huge.