Watered Garden

Amen!

Well, against my better judgement, I went back to Sunday school yesterday. Dr. Wilkinson, among other things that royally ticked me off, states that "One of the greatest mistakes churches make today is to teach that Satan gives people sickness. Satan doesn't give people sickness, God does!" He went on to say that sickness and disease is one method God uses to discipline the believer who is not bearing fruit. God may also discipline His miscreant child with premature death. He used some really strange interpretation of I Corinthians 11 for part of his reasoning. He has a nasty habit of bragging about looking up the Greek, but never telling what it is. He says there is a passage in Ezekiel that proves there are different degrees of sin, and that God punishes different degrees of sin with appropriate degrees of discipline. I haven't checked that one out yet. He didn't bother with chapter and verse. He also says that we should do good works because we are motivated by FEAR of God's discipline. I stood right up and said that fear is a lousy way to discipline; it never worked with my son, and it doesn't work with me. (Thanks Krysllis!) A lot of people were upset, but not as vocal as I was. One woman talked about Betty Rollins's book about her fight with breast cancer, and how much stronger she is now that she has overcome the disease, and while she wouldn't wish it on anyone, she is very thankful she had breast cancer because now she is a stronger person. "That which doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." Holy $$$$HHHHHIIIITTTT! This time my husband is equally unhappy and e-mailed our pastor with questions, mostly about this matter of God giving people sickness and disease, killing them, and the discrepancy between what the eminent doctor is teaching and what is obviously the context of I Cor 11, i.e. communion. He thinks our pastor is great; he does know him a lot better than I do, but if this church puts its foot down, it is going to break my heart because I do love the people there. We are not having a video next week but continuing our discussion of this one. What amazes me, and it shouldn't, is that people are hearing this guy and swallowing it hook, line and sinker. Even as devout a Waybot as I was, I never believed the "all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king' teaching, along with some others, and I sure as heck never believed much of the present spewth from LCM. One very nice man was amazed, because he had always been taught sin is sin, period. On the other hand, I have spent over 30 years of my life loving God and trying learn to serve Him. If in fact God saw fit to smite me with insulin dependent diabetes at a time in my life when I was struggling with some things and trying to discern His will in a matter, then He is a much worse father then my earthly father was. He would have hugged me and tried to help me out, not smote me with a disease that is ultimately terminal. If anyone has some good suggestions of verses that contradict what this nasty (but very rich) person is teaching, please let me know. If I go back, I want to be well armed with the truth! And also please pray for my strength and wisdom. I don't want to be swayed by this booger, but I cry a lot. Thanks, WG

I think corporate worship is important. At least to me, it gives new people a chance to see what the entire church is about, and there are benefits to having a permanent facility to do it in. You can have meetings of different groups at different times and everybody knows where it is. You can make your church available to the community for non-church functions, such as boy scout or girl scout troops meeting there. IMO a church should be part of the community and benefit the community. I also like small groups that meet in the homes, maybe just three or four families. If you want to use an OT example, Moses at his father-in-law's wise advice, broke Israel into groups, then smaller groups from those groups, etc. It's not just about outreach, it's about individual growth, which can often happen best in a small group where people can also be encouraged, study together, pray together, laugh together and grow together. Then come to corporate worship and see the bigger picture. Just my experience and observation. WG

Sounds like deja vue all over again! Book chapter and verse???? I guess they edit that stuff out of the TV sermons. At least I've never heard it, but I do remember something about they were building a big building and asking for donations, then she and her husband got cosmetic surgery or something. That's fine if it comes out their own money. Otherwise it's like using the ABS for BOD to vacation in the Bahamas. Not a good thing. WG

I like Joyce Meyer but don't get as much time to listen to her as I'd like. If she comes to Columbus some time soon, I think I will go. Now there's a woman who should NOT keep silence in the church! WG

Absolutely wonderful! Did your daughter write that song? I have been having a bad week so far. That song really lifted my spirits! WG

HB from WG, who is computer illerate and can't do much with pictures, but wishes you the best from the heart! WG

Somebody please post John Mellencamp's "Small Town" on this thread! We've lived in several small towns, though none so small as some of you describe. Probably my favorite was Salisbury, NC. We lived in what was described as the town's first subdivision on a street with sidewalks and sugar maples. Most of the houses were late 1940's early 1950's and relatively small. Everyone spoke when you walked down the street. Our neighbors were two retired couples who had lived there forever. It was a very peaceful place. WG

Janet, My FDIL has some training in hotel management and has longed to get back into it ever since she got married, divorced, etc. A few weeks ago, she got a job with a large and nice hotel chain. It is entry level and she doesn't make much money at all, but it is as she says, "a foot in the door." We are thinking it will lead onward and upward for her. The chain has newly renovated a warehouse into a very swank hotel in Charleston. Maybe she can manage it someday and we can come and stay for a while! (Though I'd miss my grandson horribly). So, (to make a short story long) I think Daughter is doing the right thing, getting her foot in the door, or on the plane, and getting to advance from there. I'd fly with her any day! WG

Waysider, that puts me in mind of a guest teacher our first year in FLO, might have been Doug Emerson, but maybe someone else, who said that after we are saved and learn to love God, we do good works because "we are made that way." We are a new creation in Christ. Our very nature is changes as we learn more and more about God. We don't need God's heavenly cudgel, we need to love God and be loved in return. It kind of seems like this Wilkinson guy takes a very dim view of Christians. On a slight rabbit trail, we went to a meeting for small group leadership training last night. The pitifully young associate pastor mentioned at one point that he and the senior pastor were the only Biblically trained people there. Mr. Garden was sitting right next to me, and it was all I could do not to bust out laughing, and say something like "Yeah, but have you ever gotten up at 5:00 AM, run with the cows, and come back to a tasty bowl of freshly prepared wheat berries?" Mr. Garden and I led "small groups" for nearly twenty years. And he probably knows at least as much Bible as the associate pastor. They have NO idea! WG

I have been trying post on this thread for an hour, however, my 14 year old labrador retriever barks every 2-5 minutes to have her rear end picked up so she can go to another room, and she barks until I come do it for her. Thus, no concentration, no viable posts. I did want to comment on the last line of Belle's quote from the Blue Letter Bible commentaries: "for to judge ourselves is our sin." That is exactly what this guy tells people to do on page 40 of this workbook. Judge ourselves is the only way we can avoid the discipline of God. Otherwise, he will scourge us, smite us, whatever. This is making me madder and madder. But I need Scripture references like the ones y'all have been giving me so I can be clear and clean (and a little bit mean) in Sunday School. Thanks, Later, WG

Dooj, Sitting here and reading through the whole thing, I see again how Wilkinson has twisted scripture and taken things out of context. The emphasis is not on God "pruning" our lives so much as that He loves us and has chosen us. Wilkinson says that in practical terms. fruit is good works, how God receives His due honor on earth. Inner Fruit is when you allow God to nurture in you a new Christlike quality. He quotes Galatians and the fruit of the spirit. Outward fruit is when you do things to bring God glory. All well and good. That's the first session. Then he goes into this thing about God disciplining us at 3 levels. The first level is rebuke, which produces discomfort. The second level is chastening, which produces distress. The third level is scourging, which produces desperation. Next time we will go into the ways in which God disciplines us. He may discipline us with sickness or premature death. More later, WG

I wrote to Mr. Garden about the sections where the highly overrated author discussed how God disciplines us by giving us an illness such as diabetes or cancer to help us learn something or other. He is leading the discussion this Sunday. He said no way could he expound on how God makes him sick to teach him to be humble. Makes him sick to think about it. I'm humbled by the power, majesty, and goodness of God. It doesn't take a cudgel or a disease. I loved God BEFORE I was diabetic. This guy takes one parable of Jesus and writes a whole book and a class on it and makes millions. To me, it's "Christianity Lite" like "The Purpose Driven Life." This guy is so smug in his expensive suit on his decorated stage. I'll tell you what. I worked in a cancer hospital for 9 years. I saw 12-month-old babies die of an incurable cancer. I saw people maimed by the disease, disfigured by the surgery, sicked by the chemo. The children were the worst. If I thought it really pleased God to give a baby cancer, so that that little life is one of suffering, anguish and pain from birth to untimely end, I would want absolutely nothing to do with that God. I think for a so-called man of Goid to ascribe such awful things to my loving heavenly Father must make the devile really happy. Talk about deceitful! WG

This stuff just makes me sicker and sicker. I"ve been reading through the book, making notes like crazy. On page 53 I come to the 3rd secret of the vine: "If your life bears a lot of fruit, God will invite you to abide more deeply with him." This sounds like "If you don't tithe a minimum of 10%, God won't even spit in your direction." Does anyone know the verse "Abide in Me and I will abide in You"? I'm finding some things in I John 2 about abiding in Christ. I think this guy is putrid fruit. I still have NO idea what the fruit he is talking about is, whether it's people you get to be saved or good works or money or whatJ? I"m still looking through the book for a money connection. . Any suggetions? I'm gonna have some scripture on hand somehow and I ain't all that good. But this stuff makes my skin crawl, as did The Purpose Driven Life and way back when, "Christian Family and Sex." Any help would be apperciated. WG

K-n-o-x-v-i-l-l-e. Take a deep breath. Do one of those neat relaxing things you always try to tell me about when I get all wired and fired. Kudos to Daughter! She's so amazing! That little girl I remember has done so much in her young life! As I recall vaguely, Knoxville is pretty cool. In fact, I like all of TN pretty well. Will keep the apt. in my prayers! Luvya, WG

HB from WG!!!!! (Kinda computer ignorant and don't know how to do the pretty pictures, but the heartiest wishes for a great year to come! WG

Congratulations! Pets are so wonderful to have; they keep you company and love you no matter what. You could name them Pete and Re-peet! Bonnie and Clyde (depending on gender determination). Fuzzy and Wuzzy. I once had friends who had two cats named Mac and Tosh (Macintosh, like the apple). This worked well until Tosh bit the dust. Then they just had Mac. I'm more of a dog person, I guess, but I've been around a few cats I really liked. One was named Gusto and we got her from my boss, this back in Athens, Ohio. Her stepdaughter thought they should have a dog named Schlitz and a cat named Gusto. She went back to her mom's at the end of the summer and the cat went to me, but decided to be our housemates' cat instead. She was a sweet little kitty though. Very prolific, sadly. WG

WOW! THAT certainly explains a lot! No wonder this guy makes me want to spew forth my breakfast onto the Sunday school room walls! I don't think the people who picked this to study have any idea what they are dealing with. And boy! The prayer of Jabez - talk about taking a verse out of context and twisting and turning it to suit one's purposes! Oh, yeah, I'm gonna stay in this class! And study to have a biblical answer for all of his nonsense. Like I said, I bet Jesus just gets a headache thinking about all the crap that's preached in His name. Of course this guy is just pretending to preach in Jesus' name, so that's even worse. I don't like Rick Warren, either. I see something here though, at least regarding fear of the Lord's discipline. Fear is a tool. Betcha it's gonna end up to be a class in Manipulation 101. WG

Post deleted by Watered Garden. TMI.

Actually, Dooj, when I was first in TWI, people referred to their "babes" in the Word (ministry) as their "fruit." I have no idea what this guy thinks is fruit. I kind of stopped thinking about going from no fruit to fruit when he talked about scourging. Maybe he is a fruitcake and this is a fruitcake class! I am going to give some serious thought to whether I want to continue this class or not. My husband doesn't understand my objections - how could I think our pastor would be into this legalistic sounding stuff? Well guess who picked out the class? I think the entire premise is dangerously close to salvation by works. If you don't produce, you will be cut off and thrown into the fire! He says that's not really what it means, but it sure reads that way in every version of the Bible I've got. I'm just unhappy about it right now. I have a week to decide. And I will study a lot and write down my own thoughts on the matter. Intelligent woman is NOT an oxymoron! WG

Thanks, one and all. I appreciate that I am not considered a stupid fool for not jumping into this class with both feet. Dooj, your answer is perfect. They are not using the discussion questions per se, just reading them to see if they want to paraphrase any of them for the discussion time. My husband did tell me that if I don't like the class I don't have to come. He thinks the author's terminology, especially "scourging" is weird. As I understand, scourging was done with a cat-o-nine-tails type of instrument, containing several strips of hardened rawhide, into which were embedded sharp pieces of bone or glass, which when properly utilized, removed skin and flesh, pretty well leaving the scourgee with strips of skin hanging off his back as well as missing chunks of flesh and exposed ribs and vertebrae. Remember the scourging scene from "The Passion of The Christ?" A lot of people died from infection after being scourged. I agree completely that God is a God of love. This guy says that God scourges us because He loves us so much! My parents might have whapped me with a ruler once in a while, but I was never beaten bloody by anyone. And I have always WANTED to do the will of God, as best I can understand it. The way this guy described in the video, was like when he was a child at the dinner table with parents and children, and he would disobey, perhaps using bad table manners, and it would progress from mom looking at him a certain way, and if he didn't straighten up dad would clear his throat, and so on and so forth, until dad would calmly send him to his room, with a promise to be along to see him after dinner, and it would not be pleasant. Then dad would come along and administer a prolonged and severe thrashing. Wonder if this guy was abused as a child and thinks God is like that because dad was? <_< I just hate it when people ascribe characteristics to God that make Him seem like He's up there watching you with suspicion, His stout cudgel in one hand and His heavenly cat-o-nine-tails in the other, waiting for you to step over the line so He can beat the crap out of you. If that's God's nature, I want nothing to do with Him. But I don't think it is at all. Don't worry be happy, my diabetes was diagnosed when I was still involved with TWI. It was undoubtedly a result of a combination of genetic factors from my dad's side, and the extreme stress I was under when we were dismissed from the FWC and moved to the left coast, there to be constantly weighed in the balance and found wanting by a couple of little WC mosquito-heads. I really like this church and most of the time I am thankful for it being in my life. I think some of the fault is mine. I am so accustomed to taking a class, any class, and then having to believe that every word in the class is gospel. I'm working on that....gospel is gospel. This class is just this pinhead's opinion, and so far I'm not at all impressed with his opinion. Not at all. Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says we will be approved before God if we bear much fruit, fruit being people we bring to Christ? The only thing I remember is that 2nd Timothy verse about right dividing the word of truth. And of course VPW twisted that one to suit himself. I think the fruit of the vine is usually whatever the teacher wants it to be, people, money, prestige, whatever. I may or may not go back. My husband is actually the class assistant, but he doesn't care if I sit this one out. He was thoroughly sick of hearing me question and complain about it yesterday, so maybe it will be a relief to both of us if I don't go back. In 1996, I was totally, absolutely, completely completely completely absolutely convinced that I would never be worthy of the most exceedingly great and mighty and unspeakable privilege of crossing the bridge of believing into the promised land of the prevailing word. I knew that if I was not an unswervingly faithful, unquestioningly loyal, and instantaneously obedient follower of The Way International Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship Ministry, that God would hate me, that the Christ in me would die and that I would suffer and suffer and suffer and suffer and then physically die also. I think LCM taught the scourging of the Lord better than this guy ever could. I sometimes wonder if it hasn't scarred me for life. Sorry for the rant. Thanks, all, again. WG

Thanks Dooj, I think that's a good idea. The guy even used a Greek word today. I think I will look it up. Never did that with PFAL. Too bad. Here's a discussion question from the end of the session we just studied: "How does the FEAR (my caps) of God's discipline motivate you to become more productive? What place does the love of the Father have in that motivation?" Well, fear only motivates me to get the he11 away from whatever or whoever is causing that fear. So I guess my fear of God's discipline motivates me to get my anatomy away from God. Especially if He is planning to throw me into a fire to be burned to ashes, or to burn in he11 for all eternity, if I am not bringing new people to church or whatever. I mean, if I'm going to he11 no matter what I do I might as well enjoy myself now. Or since I do food demos at a wholesale store, maybe I could set up a little cart: "Hi! Would you like to try a sample of salvation today? It's free, it's good for you, and if you don't accept it, I'M GOING TO BURN!" Nice, huh? WG WG

This is a class by Bruce Wilkinson, author of "The Prayer of Jabez." I never read The Prayer of Jabez, because I thought it was about financial prosperity and I wasn't interested. Our adult Sunday school class is taking this class. It is a video and workbook and then you discuss. First of all, the guy is wearing a very nice suit and is up on a stage in front of an audience. The stage is sumptuously decorated. This alone bothers me; deja vue all over again. Second, the object is that you learn to bear much "fruit." Now back in TWI-land, "fruit" is all the gullible souls you drag to twig and then through class after class after class. God will reward you according to however many you "undershepherd" through each class after class after class. That's your "fruit" that you present for God to judge your worthiness to enter His kingdom, or whatever. Today, the author discussed going from no fruit to fruit. How God deals with those hapless souls who after being saved turn away from Him. First He rebukes. This causes discomfort. If a sinner does not heed the rebuke, the next step is chastening. This causes distress. If the evildoer still doesn't listen the final step is scourging. Scourging causes desperation and pain. There's a whole lot more to it than this, but my stomach was churnhing by the end of the hour. I am not sure where this is all headed, but I am reasonably sure already that I do not want to go there. For example, maybe God is scourging me for not believing LCM is the greatest Man of God who ever lived, by giving me diabetes. That's what I was told when I was diagnosed. Or maybe it's an excuse to pick at people. My husband can't imagine I wouldn't trust our pastor, whom he thinks is a fine man. I do too, but there was a time in my life when I though VPW was a fine man, too. I sure don't trust my own judgement and I will probably never trust anyone connected with any church all that much, either. Any thoughts? Suggestions? Similar experiences?

Yeah, I remember about it. Not too much, though. I definitely remember the aftermath, though. JFK announcing we would go to the moon. Alan Shepherd, Gus Grissom, John Glenn. What a lot of money and what are the results? Freeze dried food, for one thing. Any other benefits to all mankind, other than the Russians are taking potshots at us from the moon? WG

Ohmigosh! That is awesome! Mr. Garden and I love it! WG