Watered Garden

I think it is unutterably sad that many socalled Christians completely misinterpret what the Bible says about marriage. If they would think of it in light of the comparison to Christ's relationship to the church, one of love and caring and concern, they would lose the attitude that women are to SUBMIT-SUBJECT-OBEY. The man is addressed to in case no one noticed. I can be the wife I want to be because my husband is the man described in Eph 5 and elsewhere. Interestingly, one of the biggest things I've been taught about human relationships, especially the marriage relationship, since I left TWI is NO MANIPULATION! It's dishonest and demeaning. I read "the Total Woman" the first couple years I was married. Ms. Morgan may have had some good points, but honestly, whenever I tried her suggestions my husband either burst out laughing or questioned my mental health, jokingly of course, but that manipulative sex stuff just looked stupid to him. If I want something, all I have to do is ask. I did know a woman many years later who was still into that stuff and actually took me to her closet and pulled out a whole bunch of hangers with some really sleazy lingerie. I was stunned; she dressed kind of like a nun most of the time. She insisted I take this teddy thing home to thrill Mr. Garden. His reaction: "Where did that piece of junk come from?" I thought it was hilarious. WG

Was it "The Total Woman," by Marabel Morgan? (A silly-a$$ed book if ever I read one). It had a lot in it about sex-as-a-manipulative tool and so on; clean the house, cook his favorite meal, light the candles, put the kiddies to bed an hour before he gets home. Then greet him at the door in some cute little nothing costume, like fluffy pink shorty pj's and hip high boots. First two things out of his mouth would be "Are you sick?" and "Where are the kids?" WG

Okay, I'm gonna have to quit posting on this forum because WD keeps lifting one sentence out of my posts, twisting its meaning, taking it out of context, and using it against everyone. S/he's so good at twisting and misinterpreting stuff for personal benefit I wonder if it isn't really LCM we're writing with! WG

No White Dove, I never heard anyone in any official capacity in a videotaped class or on the podium teaching at an official TWI "advance" or "class" or anything else say, "Yea, verily, and of an absolute certainty, my people, if thy wife offend thee she must be vigorously scourged, thrashed, whipped and beaten into submission." Of course no one would actually formally TEACH that. They could be held liable. Just like when we were told by WC to take our son into the North Cascades, walk him up to where no one could heard his screams, and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he knew that he would die if he ever disrespected us again. Those words were not published or recorded. No one wants to be named in a court case and have TWI"s precious name dragged through the mud. When I was diagnosed with IDDM I was sleeping in a tent at the ROA. This same man who wanted my child beaten reproved me for having IDDM and being so sick, because "one more night in that tent and you would have died, AND THAT WOULD HAVE MADE THE MINISTRY LOOK BAD!" Not one word of concern, not one "gee, I wish you'd come to me and let me help you find a doctor before things got so bad, honey." I would have made the ministry look bad. That was what mattered. The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there. You sound a lot like the man I described above, WD. No heart for people. Everyone on this forum is human. Everyone's cry of pain and outrage is different, yet the same. I'm so sorry you can't hear those cries and respond with a heart of love. And one more thing: The marriage relationship described in the Scripture is very different from TWI's spin on it. WG

You know, I post stuff here to try to help people as well as myself explain and understand the TWI experience we all share to one degree or another. To suggest I "have an ax to grind" is even more insulting than taking a comment I made out of context and using it to shore up a comment I certainly as NOT in agreement with. I was associated with TWI from 1974-1996. During that time, I saw small-minded, legalistic busybodies try to run my world and I saw kind-hearted, God-loving people set an example of a Christian walk, and everything in between. By NO MEANS did I intend to suggest that the legalism in marriage teachings only happened between 1993-96. In 1977 I heard Rev. N**cy D**can teach at a women's advance on a verse in Hebrews that Sara called Abraham "adonai" and that that is a name for God. Sara spoke to Abraham (her own personal god) and Abraham spoke to God for her. Anybody remember that besides me? I think it was also mentioned in the CF&S class. Let's don't get on a tangent but I'm not sure that's correct. I'm not real good at using concordances but I found the verse in the Young's and it was a different word,.....I think. The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps. WG

Well said, Highway! I am so thankful my marriage is NOTHING like Craig and Donna's!!!!! The likemindedness, what you so aptly called "cookie cutter theology" contradicted the "Biblical research" part, didn't it? I completely agree with your post! (does that mean I'm right?") WG

I was taught by a woman who was a graduate of the WC and a BC who was a graduate of the WC that if ANYTHING untoward happened to my husband, my son, or myself, it was because I was not submitting myself sufficiently to my husband. This included dismissal from the FWC due to our son being a rebellious child, husband having a hard time finding work, and my being diagnosed as an insulin dependent diabetic. All of this, without exception, was my fault because I was not sufficiently meek, humble, submissive and obedient. I'm sure some of you will strongly agree with this scenario; however, guess who strongly DISAGREED? MY HUSBAND, THAT'S WHO!!! He thought it was the stupidest thing he'd ever heard. I was and have been and still am doing my best to be the wife Prov. 31:10-31 describes. (That description, incidentally, was twisted by TWI into unrecognizable legalism.) I mean, WHY is the wife doing these things? Because she loves God, loves her husband, loves her kids, loves her home. If it's not out of love and respect it's not worth it. And it is a given that the husband is a wonderful man. One "good clocking" and the deal's off. And I will tell you something else. I never got to know the BC very well, but the 6th WC grad ran her household and her husband's life with a sweet, submissive smile and an iron fist. This guy actually told me privately some things that indicated he wasn't very happy. None of the posters who are in favor of a man beating the crap out of a woman have shown me book, chapter, and verse. I think any man who would do so is seriously lacking in coping skills, self-esteem, and the milk of human kindness. A while back something was bothering me and I was upset and very talkative and persistent about it; some might even call it nagging. My husband was not happy about this after a few days/weeks of my distress, and heartily wished I would stop talking about it. I did, of my own free will, so he would be at peace. Looking back, I realize this was the kind of situation JohnIam describes, in which he would believe I needed and deserved a good clocking, maybe a couple black eyes, a broken nose, and some smashed teeth? But my husband didn't do that. He just patiently waiting for me to get ahold of myself. Wonder why? Could it be because he loves God, he loves me, and he loves himself? Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry. WG

My all time favorite is still "A Charlie Brown Christmas." The part where Linus says, "I can tell you the real meaning of Christmas, Charlie Brown," and then goes on to recite from Luke still chokes me up, especially now that I'm working in a large membership warehouse type store, where I listen to synthesized rock versions of The Hallelujah Chorus for hours on end, punctuated by screaming children and frowning, complaining adults. Sometimes I just want to set the microwave on the floor and jump on top of my cart with a bullhorn: "I know the real meaning of Christmas, Costco shoppers!" WG

Nathan, I just wanted to say welcome. You sound like a very mature and kindhearted young man. If your dad is from a town in northwest Ohio that is the peony capital of the US, then I kinda knew him, and he and Mr. Garden are from the same town. Anyways, welcome to the fray! Be sure to come around next July when I'm serving up my ripe tomatoes, raspberry sorbet, and blackberries from the garden! WG

Bumpster, We posted at the same time. My next post is right above yours. I should have included non-Christian points of view in that first paragraph, but I'm rushed and I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head. WG

I guess what I'm trying to express is that your basic beliefs are just that - yours. If you like fundamentalism that's great. If I need to know a fundamentalist point of view on something, I'll be sure to ask. If you are a Presbyterian and believe in predestination, that's okay too. I don't but I'll respect your right to believe it, and I'll never call you "stupid" because I disagree. Life's too short to being trying to cram some POV on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin down one another's throat. A month or so ago, a video class was run in our church adult Sunday school that some people loved, some people thought was mostly okay, some people thought was boring, and I had a severe emotionally allergic reaction to. I was so upset I ended up dropping out of the class. But that's me. Another guy mentioned later how wonderful he thought this video class was, and how it helped him realize he needed a deeper personal relationship with God. That's him. Thankfully, no one tried to force me to believe I was wrong because I disagreed with some, actually a lot, of what this video was teaching as truth. Had that been in TWI, I would've have been soundly reproved at the first sign of doubt. If that didn't straighten me up, I would have been screamed at, then finally put on spiritual probation, then marked and avoided if I didn't conform pretty quickly. My questions would never have been answered because asking questions is a sign of unbelief. Unfortunately, I think some of us still find ourselves promoting the self-righteous attitude that WE are right and the rest of the world is wrong. I'd rather get to personally know a loving God Whose son is His example of what to think, say and do as I live life to the fullest here and now, than try to prove how great I am - because that would be an impossible task for just about everyone, especially me. WG

I'm not at all sure I'm right any more, but I do still have a lingering fear of being wrong. Here are three answers I think are helpful. 1. Love God 2. Love your neighbor. 3. Love yourself. That's about all there is to it. The rest is gravy, and everyone makes gravy differently. If you like your gravy best, that's great. Just ask politely before you pour your gravy on another's meatloaf. They might like theirs better. Okay? WG

I know there were a lot of good guys out there who considered it their responsibility before God to feed God's sheep and protect them. She just wasn't one of them. And yes, the baby was life-flighted to Children's in Columbus at 3 hours of age, the problem was surgically corrected, and the last I saw him, years ago at a ROA, he was a strapping teenager, looked healthy as a horse. Mom and dad were rightfully thankful to the folks who did the surgery, and the quick action of the doctors at the local hospital who diagnosed the problem and called for the chopper. Also rightfully ticked off at Ms. WC for her high and mighty attitude with the grandparents. WG

No, she wasn't trying to spare us the BS. This is the chick who, when a baby was born in our branch with a correctable but serious birth defect, refused to tell the PFAL-grad grandparents what was wrong. " All you need to know is to speak in tongues." She informed them. What a compassionate, tenderhearted woman of God! Makes me want to regurgitate. WG

I doubt the little 6th WC princess who was the leadership where we lived would have even remotely considered advising any of us of the impending disaster. We would have been totally expendable in her snobbish little mind. She was a WOMAN OF GOD, doncha know, with in-depth spiritual understanding and awareness, and not a one of us was worthy of the privilege of carrying her jock strap. Or whatever. On the other hand, we were blissfully unaware of the catastrophe that never happened. WG

Beautiful but deadly! WG

In September, 1989 we lived in Charleston, SC with Hurricane Hugo struck. Hugo was a bad number, dwarfed of course by later, even worse storms such as Andrew and Katrina. We had no electricity for two weeks, but lots of help from the corporation which employed my husband. Here are a few things I learned the hard way: Never let your gas tank on your car be less than half full. A push sweeper like they use in restaurants is helpful if you live on carpet. An alternate means of cooking, i.e. gas or better yet charcoal grill is important. Keep charcoal and lighter on hand. Canned food and bottled water. Keep any prescription medications filled. If you live in an area where there may be looting a firearm would be helpful. Candles, flashlights, batteries. If you have any equipment that runs on batteries, i.e.a clock, a radio, or in my case, an insulin pump, make sure you have new batteries to use if needed. (I didn't have an insulin pump then but do now, so I'm thinking ahead in case of a hurricane in Ohio). WG

Oh man, I remember that root cellar. The story I heard was that JM forgot to get building permits, and since a root cellar is in fact a building of sorts, the closest next door neighbor reported it and he got told to shut it down. (Didn't anyone tell you the neighbor was born of the serpent's seed?) I also remember JM having a shyt fit about someone stealing his address book or something (probably his then wife) and how the devil could use it to harm believers. Now..... Thanks to Jonny Lingo for the info re the reason for the 1979 or so crap. I strongly suspected when I read a reference to it on the "Norway" thread that we mere humble peons were to be the sacrificial lambs, left for slaughter while God's holiest headed for the hills to preserve the ministry. Thanks a lot, y'all. I could have died in a concentration camp, happy and secure in the knowledge that my suffering and death had delayed the heathen hoards of the US Government from rounding up y'all and snuffing out the shining light of PFAL. And you wonder why I don't trust leadership types. WG

I was a WOW 1974-75 in Ft. Worth, TX. I vaguely remember this fellow showing up sometime after the first of the year who said he was from HQ and was hitchhiking around the country to all the various WOW branches to "bless the WOWs." I don't remember much about him except he was tall, affable, not too bad looking, and gave me the shivers. He hung out for a few days, came to fellowships, ate our food, and one day when I came home from work he was gone. The WOW branch coordinator and a couple of large guys had driven him out to I-35 and sent him packing. Seems she phoned HQ and they knew absolutely nothing about what he had described as his HQ-blessed mission. She may well have saved some lives by doing so. Even before I went out WOW, there was a fellow who showed up, having known a twig leader in a previous location, who was greeting all the ladies with a "holy" French kiss. He had to be strongly encouraged to hit the road also. The looseness and openness of fellowships full of young, enthusiastic people and especially the WOW fellowships, where anyone and everyone was welcome, and some of the WOWs had lived sheltered lives and had more starry-eyed "believing" than common sense (that would include me) were an invitation to deviates of every description. It's a wonder any of us survived. WG

My husband and I saw her in passing at the next ROA after her husband died. She had let her hair go silver. She was slimmer, in a healthy way, and looked about ten years younger and her expression was, well, peaceful and merry. My husband even remarked to me how well she looked. I remember thinking what "renewed mind" she must have to look that way so soon after his passing. Probably "relieved" was more like it! WG

Tom, I had actually heard of MALpacks in context of the turn of the century from 1999-2000, when computer systems all over the world were supposed to crash, turning off all communications, electricity, causing ships to crash due to lack of satellite guidance systems etc. However, on the Norway murders thread, it sounds like there was a conspiracy theory in place in 1979-80 also. That is what confuses me. As I mentioned before, we were in Athens, Ohio at that time, when the Live PFAL class or Advanced Class or whatever was held there, and though I didn't attend all of the sessions, (we had a houseful of strangers to deal with) I certainly never heard of any such danger of invasion and destruction. Since we left in 1996, we didn't get in on the universal panic that apparently prevailed in 1999, all for naught since none of this ever happened. WG

Bumpy, that was a serious question. Was there in fact some sort of disaster going to happen, at least in the minds of the elite and the WC, that the WC only were to prepare to survive and the rest of us were sacrificial lambs? Our BC at that time was a snooty, superior, 6th WC grad who would have been "in the know." You would think, if that were the case, someone who loved God and loved the people they thought God had given them to take care of would have wanted them to be prepared to survive some invasion or whatever also. Can anyone out there shed some light on this? I mean, at the time we were totally committed to what we thought was God's ministry, and the idea that we were to be left to die so that the WC and BOT could escape to the hills is absolutely horrifying. I mean, I knew at the time we were not valued by the Woman of God who ran our branch, but it sounds like the whole TWI was that way, too. WG

I am filled with praise and thanksgiving! Yea God! How wonderful for all of you! WG

My husband and I were in Athens, Ohio, in 1979-80 and I don't think we were ever told anything about any conspiracy where we should prepare with guns, sacks of millet or anything? Was this supposed to be a situation where only the WC were to survive and the rest of us peons were sacrificial lambs? We were both FLO grads, too. I didn't attend every meeting of the Live Advanced Class in Athens in 1979, but I sure 'nuff don't remember any "sky is falling" scenario being mentioned there. Nice, huh? Apparently the armies of evil were going to be busy hunting us down and killing us so the WC could escape? Sweet! WG

How humbling. I know I whine about the stupidest little things. And the father and son just went out and did what they wanted to do, overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In heaven that young man will leap, run, shout, and dance before his Lord. WG