Watered Garden

Last night at Ladies Bible Study, the subject came up of spiritual gifts. I am now rather confused. According to popular belief in this group, when one is saved one receives a spiritual gift. Now I always thought that gift was holy spirit, lower case. However, they seem to think it is one of what TWI taught was the 5 gift ministries, i.e. apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher. They also talk about other kinds of gifts, which seem to be the things you excel at doing in the body of Christ, such as teaching, or in my case, baking stuff for Sunday morning coffee between church school and worship service. Or whatever. The teacher of this class, titled "A Woman After God's Own Heart" talked about developing your ministry. The women present talked about figuring out what your ministry is and doing that to the best of your ability, whether it is taking care of babies, baking cookies, visiting the sick, prayer, or teaching groups. So how does one know whether one's "ministry" is being fulfilled? What if my "ministry" is something I don't like or want to do? Will God tell me what it is? WG PS - moderators, if this develops to be better placed in "Doctrinal" please feel free to move it. Thanks.

I do remember at one point or another being told to discard immediately anything that reminded us of anyone who had left TWI. I have no pictures of people dear to me from Charleston. When we left, I'm sure everyone who knew us was told to discard any pictures of us, anything gifts we had given, anything we had sold them. One woman had a wing chair we had sold her that she dearly loved and had asked us many times if we ever got rid of it she wanted it badly. I would not be surprised if it ended up at the curb the first garbage day after I told her we had left and weren't planning on returning to the hallowed household of holiness, or whatever TWI was calling themselves at that point. Sad. WG

I intensely dislike hard sells. I can hand out samples at work with a smile, even to the brats who scream at me that it's the wrong color or flavor or just plain YUCK! But the in your face, gimme the $200 or roast in hell sales techniques called witnessing and undershepherding always made me nauseated. Why? Because there's no genuine concern for the individual, no caring, not really. I remember getting reproved because if someone wanted spiritual counsel, what little I could give them, or prayed for, but wasn't interested in the class or whatever, that was fine with me and I'd talk, read scripture and pray with them. Not everyone dropped their nets and fell in line with the twelve. Some people just got healed and went their way rejoicing. WG

Socks, Standing Excellent! WG

During my 23 years in TWI, I gave away or threw away many things which I deeply regret no longer having. I gave a young woman my collection of demitasse cups that I dearly loved because she wanted them so badly and I wasn't displaying them at the moment, so I thought I should not have them at all. My advice to you is to hang on to whatever you think might miss, whether you are utilizing it on a daily basis or not. Oh and one other thing - Uncle Harry is dead and has been so for quite some time. And I doubt seriously if he died penniless and homeless. As I recall, he drove a Cadillac when a Ford Maverick would have done very nicely. WG

Dooj, thanks SO MUCH for posting that song-and-dance routine from Godspell! I loved that play. I even got a bunch of medical WOW's to see it at Butler University. Bit of irony in the last scene, though. "Yes, it's all for the best" from the top of one of the WTC towers. But, ya know, there will come a day.... Now for my letter, circa 1975: Dear WG, See that guy in the tank top who is walking through the garden singing, "I've got the love of Jesus?" He is gonna be the best husband for you you could ever imagine. Oh, and, don't worry so much. God really does love you and He will take care of you in unexpected ways. Love, WG

Glad you found him, Galen. Hope he's doing okay. WG

I would say that instructions to the first century church were to Christians who wanted to behave in a Christ-like manner, but either got off track or didn't have enough knowledge, wisdom and understanding to do things right. These very scriptures were twisted by TWI to strongly discourage any kind of legal action against them, no matter what they did. And trust me, they did plenty. Check out some of the threads on child abuse, adultery, etc. The legal system was the last recourse. Go to the individual who offended you, and if you don't get resolution go to other believers, go to the elders, and if it can't be resolved any other way, go to a court of law. Mr. Allen and the others went through all that. Thank God he was successful. Just as TempleLady about justice within the hallowed halls of the fortress of Zion of TWI. And a few others as well. I don't believe I've ever seen instruction in scripture for leadership to "cover your azz ". But TWI made a doctrine out of it. WG

There's a new, unauthorized biography of Tom Cruise by Andrew Morton, who wrote "Diana: Her True Story". It just appeared at the membership warehouse where I work part time. I haven't read it but it looks at a glance like kind of an expose'. Ironically, while I was on break yesterday, I fell into a conversation with two women about him, his "religion" and cults in general. I didn't reveal my past association, but was able to speak about cults in general with a bit of authority! WG

One of the most joyful moments of my life was when we visited Bar Harbor a few years ago, and I bought a cross on a chain to wear. We got it at the Hemptorium. Fairly decent size with turquoise in the center. I have several now, including a little gold one that belonged to my precious aunt. And yeah, if Jesus had been electrocuted, I would wear a little electric chair around my neck to remind me of the sacrifice made for one such as I. I always thought the ban on crosses was stupid. WG

Welcome to GSC! Susan Bouldin was my WOW sister/branch leader in 1974-75 in Ft. Worth Texas. Haven't heard from/seen her in years and years, though. The first latte' is on the house! WG

As I recall, she does have one excellent singing voice. Thanks for posting this. WG

Cman, if you look on about page 7 of the Open Forum, there is a thread on the video class "Secrets of the Vine" by Dr. Bruce Wilkinson, who is also the author of "The Prayer of Jabez" that deals with much the same thing as CC9 was proclaiming. That is why I asked him/her if s/he had taken this class or read the book. I disagree with the POV expressed in both instances, but at least the class stated it clearly. When I asked for clarification and simplification, I got jumped on by both of you. If CC9 doesn't want to discuss anything in any style other than his/her own, that's fine. But I am not getting anything out of it, other than, as Potato suggested, that God does things to people that are painful in order to teach them something or heal them of the disease HE gave them in the first place. Have I learned anything by being diabetic? Why I most certainly have, but from doctors, nurses and PA-C's not from God. I am learning a LOT of self-discipline regarding what I eat, which is damn little of anything these days, so I guess you could say God is teaching me self-discipline, not through His Word or through revelation, but through a glucometer. In fact, if God wants me to learn a lesson, I find He uses His Word or another person rather than sickness, disease, death, or diabetes for that matter. For that matter, I don't believe the hapless soul in John 9 was born blind simply so Jesus could heal him. He was born blind, bad news, and Jesus healed him because he was doing the will of Him who sent him. And I survived a class 4 hurricane myself, and saw miracle after miracle in the aftermath. God worked mightily in that situation to protect His kids. Did God invent and send H. Hugo to devastate the area so we could learn about ourselves from it? I don't think so. I think the freakin' devil sent the freakin' hurricane, and God protected His people and provided their every need because, well, because He's God. My goal in life is to know God. I realize I'll never know everything while I'm in this life. But I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that God beats the crap out of people so they will learn about Him or themselves or whatever. WG

Yup. WG

CMan I apologize if I have caused you one milimicron of a nanosecond of the slightest displeasure. I will no longer post on this thread. I was trying to learn something but apparently that's not a good idea. Once again, my apologies to all. I apparently mistook a sermon for a discussion. WG

CC9, Sometimes it's not what we say, it's how we say it. You may be attempting to make a point I would not find outside my range of understanding, but I can't quite grasp what you are attempting to convey. Perhaps you could be less didactic? WG

That is hilarious! And very, very human. We are trying to teach our grandson to ask nicely for things and be thankful for what he does get. So far, he hasn't kidnapped anything or anybody, but we have been the "if you get this toy for me, then I will be good" route. WG

What Waysider said! WG

Interesting point, there Outfield, about the law of believing vs. the manifestation of believing. The second I would be more likely to attest to than the first. And i'd probably call it faith. WG

My mom as a child had a cat named Pittiwitts. My grandmother stepped on its little head as she was coming down the steps with a full laundry basket. Pittiwitts was never the same after that, went a little bonkers. They had a beagle named Polly who chased all the hobos away. And an English setter named Count whom my grandmother called No Count. WG

One of my foster children had a cockatiel named Sharlene. She left; the bird stayed, and loved my husband dearly, sitting on his shoulder and picking at the whisker stubs on his cheek. He did not appreciate this affection so Sharlene went to a new home. Our first child was Brandy, half yellow lab and half Irish setter. He was 90 lb of confidence and smart as a whip. Used to run with Mr. Garden, who ran long distances in his youth. Brandy would keep the farm dogs away, then when we moved into a more suburban area, kept the neighborhood dogs from bothering anybody with tooth and claw, and by peeing on the smaller yip-yaps who came out to chase them. We also had a female dog for a little while who was also half lab and half Irish setter, maybe, named Lucille La Cur. She got the Irish setter brain, unfortunately, and met her doom on the highway in front of our house. Another foster child had a girl dog named Haifa. He also had a cat named Genesis, who made a decision at some point to make an Exodus. Right now, Sophie is an only dog and will be as long as she lives. Then, who knows? Hopefully another cocker spaniel like Maxx, or maybe another lab like Sophie, or....???

So what you are telling me is that Yes, God gave me diabetes, and I should be grateful and thankful, because He gave it to me for a purpose, whether it be to chastise me for sin or to prepare me for service? You took a long, tortuous route to almost answer my questions. Most of them could be answered yes or no. 1) Do sickness and disease come from God? Yes or no. 2) For what purpose? A) Education B) Discipline C) Blessing 3) Are sickness and disease therefore A) Good B) Gifts C) Neither or both, depending on the attitude of the recipient. 4) Does Satan exist? 5) Is Satan evil? 6) Does Satan come to steal, kill and destroy? Does God? How do we know when something we perceive as negative comes into our lives if it is from God and good or from Satan and evil? I myself believe that Adam and Eve sinned so enormously when they fell from grace that the earth and all that was in it was gradually poisoned by sin. The very soil no longer contains the nutrients needed to grow food that will provide health to our bodies. Our bodies themselves are so polluted by generation after generation of sin that even our genetic structure has been devastatingly affected. Hence, many diseases are genetically mediated. Is this the result of sin? Well, in the long run, yes. Not necessarily sin in that an individual is not tithing, praying, thinking Christ-like thoughts or performing good works, so God smites that individual with sickness, disease, and/or death, but that the very nature of man is sin, and even our DNA contains the markers of that sin. Looking back, I see you kinda answered #1 that you don't believe catastrophes are good or evil, they just are, and how we react to them is what is important. No it never has occurred to me that God might USE me more in this situation, i.e. diabetes. It has never occurred to me that God USES people like tools or a mop or broom or whatever. I know most churches pray thus, for us to be used by God as He sees fit. But I think that's pretty weird, that the God of the universe has to USE a dumb little person for some lesson He wants to teach someone. I don't think God is USING diabetes to teach me anything, either. He gave me His Word to teach me stuff. That sounds like a parent threatening his child, "If you don't clean up your room RIGHT NOW, I will TAKE OFF MY BELT AND TEACH YOU A LESSON YOU WILL NOT SOON FORGET!" I'm not angry at God that I'm diabetic. I'm not thankful, either. I don't personally believe that God is punishing me OR blessing me. I think most sickness and disease come under the heading of ".... Happens." WG

Same wing for a few weeks, myself (probably not at the same time). Absolutely hated it. Was spied on by someone from 19th FWC whilst showering. I absolutely froze if I heard the door open while I was doing anything. I thought it was absolutely perverted and sick, a set-up for voyeurism. And we had pre-teen BOYS on that wing! What in heck were they thinking. WG

I think it depended on where you were and with whom you fellowshipped. For some it started right away, for others later. The first year we were married our BL was interim 7th WC, a very legalistic young man, whom we largely ignored. There was a lot of grace in Charleston most of the time. Less in North Carolina. None in FWC or WA. But see that was our experience. Another person might say there is a lot of grace right now and always has been, because they have never met up with a truly legalistic person in a leadership position in TWI. Lucky them. Oh, yeah and Fellowlaborers? There again, my first year there was a bit of wiggle room for grace, but darn little. The second year, new LC, no grace unless you were female and attractive. Lots of rules and regs. No common sense. A lot of times it seemed that there were folks who extended grace to themselves and their close personal friends, but not to the rest of us. The farther away TWI doctrine distanced itself from a loving God, the more legalism developed to take love's place. WG

I remember hearing LCM carry one once along the lines of some peoples' dislike of his screaming in their faces and spitting all over them. He said they should be thankful it was he and not the Lord Jesus Christ at the Bema. How would they like it if Jesus was screaming in their faces, veins bulging out on His forehead, His saliva splatting all over their eyeglasses? I thought, "But you guys taught that the saliva of a holy man is healing!" (man born blind, I think, where Jesus spat on the ground and made clay and put it on the blind man's eyes). Doesn't look like it worked too well for LCM. WG