Watered Garden

November 22 is Mr. Garden's birthday. He didn't really catch on to what was happening except his birthday party got canceled. I was in a physics class (which I later failed) when the guy from the school radio station dashed in to announce three shots had been fired at President Kennedy's motorcade and it was believed he had been fatally wounded. The guy teaching the class, said, "Oh yeah?" and went on writing some meaningless formula in spite of the fact his class was abuzz. A very sad occasion. I sometimes feel it was the end of the golden years of feeling safe and right and good. WG

I think the dancing chief devil girl was supposed to be "seed of the serpent" in AOS, whatever that was supposed to be - someone who has confessed Satan as their lord I seem to recall. I wonder if he's thought recently about trying out for Dancing with the Stars? It would be truly hilarious to watch until the British guy opened his mouth and spoke forth the truth. WG

Answering a question not addressed to me, sorry, but I had to butt in. I had a 1999 Civic coupe that got 35 MPG, was manual transmission, absolutely wonderful car, died a hero's death when some fellow pulled a hay wagon out in front of me with no lights on. A delightful little sporty car just perfect for me. Honda CR-V, wonderful, reliable, hit 4 deer at various times and #4 won. Toyota Camry, died of trauma at 186,000 miles, also a stick shift, also no problems, 33 mpg. WG

At this point in time, I drive a 1999 Jeep Cherokee with a straight 6 engine that I've owned about two weeks, since I totaled my very nice 1999 Toyota Camry, which had 186,000 miles on it, was a 4 cylinder stick-shift and got 33 MPG. The Jeep is very comfortable, extremely nice, and gets about 15 MPG. But at least it's screaming bright red. For the first twenty or so years of marriage we tended toward American-made, especially Mopar. Had a 1989 Dodge Spirit we put 208K miles on before we sold it. Had a Maverick we got from Mr. Garden's mom until it rusted out so bad the jack handle fell through the hole in the trunk onto the road. Had a Ford Escort, Plymouth Valient station wagon (POS), had a Dodge Dakota pickup, sweet truck, totaled by a 10 point buck as Mr. Garden was driving down a country road. At one point we had a Dodge Aspen which had a good engine but the body tended toward rust. I had a 1999 Honda Civic that I dearly loved, followed by a Honda CR-V, which also met its doom after hitting a deer, and then the Camry. After the untimely demise of the Dakota, we bought from a private seller a Ford Ranger pickup, club cab, manual transmission, very very nice indeed. If humanly possible, we try to get manual transmission and a 4 cylinder engine. That way they are fun to drive and you also save money on gas. We don't plan on having the Cherokee more than a couple of years, assuming the deer stay away from us. WG

As I recall, this young lady was pretty much under her parents' control while under their roof. Perhaps she is just letting off steam, exploring new unfettered freedom, and will settle down after a while. I hope so. By the Way, Geisha, my very own ears heard VPW and LCM use the "F" word more than once. Being a Christian doesn't necessarily rule out the use of Anglo-Saxon expletives. WG

Where's that thing about the squirrel in church? WG

Mark, I think Craggie-poo stated they had enough qualified men and would cease ordination of women at some point in his journey to the promised land. Yep, the pup might be a gossip. She isn't too crazy about the lab across the street. Don't know what she thinks of the terrier next door. She even says mean things about the occasional stray cat! WG

What a great idea! There's a St. Tim of Horton opening up down the street from the soon to be closed church building. Maybe we can meet there! I very frequently say "THANK YOU JESUS!" upon swigging my first cup of joe! WG

Bride, thanks for your answers. I had run across the lady apostle too, when I found a Wikipedia on women in the Christian church and I've just glanced at some of it. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century corrected someone else (St. Augustine??) who said that women were just "misbegotten men." Tom A. said this cannot be true, because that would mean God made a mistake when He made women. So, Tom A. decided that women were placed on earth to make babies. Period. What else do men do when they get together? Well, I think the medical term is "flatus." There is a ray of hope, in that Mr. Garden has mentioned he disagrees with other things this young pastor states. I will find it very interesting when they get to the part about women. They are meeting in our home next month, and I intend to be gone the entire time, since I'm sure they wouldn't want a lowly and unworthy female human being around to overhear divine secrets. I'm taking the dog, too, since she's a girldog and might gossip about the dogs across the street!!! :blink: Either that, or I could hole up in the sunroom behind the dining room table where they will undoubtedly meet, with a racy movie and a bottle of wine, emerging only to use the toilet and laugh loudly at whatever they are talking about! Well, maybe not..... But there is no way in he11 I am signing the commitment sheet that was passed out at the last meeting, including how much sacrificial tithing I would do and promising "submission to leadership." Been there. Done that. Got the scars on my heart to prove it. WG

I agree with all of the above. We attend our third-to-fourth church since leaving TWI. The first was dying, the second was a great church that we did NOT join, but we sang in the choir and were in a small group for a while. Then we got involved in a church plant that the second church started in a nearby town and DID join that one, much to my dismay and personal reluctance. I was right - the plant died. The remnant of this group is forming a new fellowship based on the model of Mars Hill Church in Seattle Washington, which gives me nausea and cold chills for a lot of reasons, mostly doctrinal. Very very conservative. So, to make a short story long, I would research the daylights out of any church before I exposed my family to it. And I would consider some mainstream churches, also. United Methodist churches are all over the place and some of them are very modern and do good works some are more conservative. Anyways, good luck and God bless. WG

Some of my father's great-great-great or so uncles were a pair of twins who were Baptist evangelists and preachers, one of whom was accused of improprietries with a choir member. Chas that is an awesome story. I have been told if I properly researched my ancestry I could belong both to the Daughters of the American Revolution and the Daughters of the Confederacy, but I'm not sure where the latter comes from. Possibly some of the children or grandchildren of one of my ancestors, whose name escapes me, but I have a copy of his 1848 will doling out his properties to his 12 children. He sent one son packing to the land he owned in Ohio, and that is how we got here. They were from Loudon County, Virginia. Oh I just remembered, his last name was Skinner. WG

My observation from my limited experience was that the mini-MOG who screamed at us was very careful to limit the witnesses he chose to those with absolute loyalty to him and TWI, the kind who would never say, "Yes, your honor, this man did in fact state to Mr. & Mrs. Garden that their son should be taken out and stoned to death." The witnesses were close to the chopping block themselves, due to their sin of home ownership, and would have defended him to the death. The other thought I had was that the lying and slander generally started AFTER they gave one the boot, and since no one was speaking to the hapless individual, they wouldn't know they were being called possessed, etc. until much later, if at all. I have no idea what this mini-MOG said about us, but I do know every time we saw an innie, they almost got whiplash looking the other way, so it must have been pretty imaginative, at least for him. WG

My great-great-great Grandpa Beecher fought with the Grand Army of the Republic and I would have the cane to prove it except my mother got mad at me and gave it to my cousin. On her side, great-great-grandpa Whitaker was just a young lad living in southeast Ohio, but he saw John Morgan's raiders coming, so he hid the purebred mare in the woods where they wouldn't steal her, got his gun and took potshots at "Morgan, Morgan the raider, and Morgan's terrible men." I do have a newspaper article, old and very yellow and frail, to prove that. WG

Well, more stuff... The church we helped plant is dying and the young associate pastor wants to start a new, nondenominational fellowship. He and another man are the two elders, so far. He is training a few good men to be elders, one of whom is Mr. Garden, at least for right now. This young man says that while perhaps some women may qualify to be deacons, there will never ever ever be a woman elder or a woman allowed to teach from the stage. Women, he informed us, can be vicious, terrible gossips, as Paul warns. (the worst I ever heard were men). So he is quite leery of women being in authority at all. Of course, I'm sure we are allowed to cook and clean. He uses those same verses about women keeping silent, not teaching or usurping authority over men, and so on. These are, he says, universal truths commanded by God to be obeyed. Mr. Garden does not believe this, so I don't know what he will do when they get to that part in the book (I sneaked a peek at the book, probably going to hell now ) I am thoroughly sick of this; the only thing that keeps me going is my son and DIL going to this church. The pastor has done a lot for him and I am very grateful. And the odd thing is, I don't want to be an elder or a deacon; all I want is a little respect and acknowledgment that I too am a worthwhile and not too stupid human being. The link to Bethel Ministries that I posted earlier seems to imply that women do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only men. Wives have a personal relationship with their husbands, because the husband is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the man. I wonder how many perfectly great marriages have been strained because someone ran across this clap-trap. I feel like instead of being partners and best friends, we are, as the women's Bible fellowship was taught, to be master/servant. (Honest we really really were). I only continue to be quite and patient about this because of my son and his family. However, if it ever gets to a point when he starts to wonder about some of the dogma, I will be happy to jump in and suggest we shop around a little. WG

Not an easy job for anyone, even the ones who enjoyed it as much as Reagan and Clinton. Clinton looks better now than he did in the aged picture. Better diet and a CABG combined with exercise must have done him good. WG

Well, I didn't vote for him, either mostly out of fear, but I have to admit I really like the guy. On election night, there was an older (about my age) African-American gentleman with tears in his eyes shown on local TV. "This is Martin Luther King's dream come true. We are all just people here. It's wonderful." He is gonna need a lot of prayer. He is getting a real mess dumped in his lap. I too thought John McCain's speech was excellent. And I have to agree, the Republicans have done a damn poor job of running things. WG

I don't think The Reverend Mr. Tripp is talking about a moment's stinging of the buttocks if he says a child must be spanked until s/he has cried it out, and is too exhausted to cry. I have smacked my grandson about twice, and he is a determined, ornery little fellow at times. Talking about the heart - I don't think this guy is on the same page about the heart as most normal Christians. He does mention we are required and commanded by God to BREAK our childrens' hearts and spirits. I'm sure this is so we can make the broken pieces fit back together to our liking. It sounds so darn much like my last few months in TWI when they wanted me to break my son or "get rid of him" because they weren't allowed by the State of Washington to stone him to death. I must say I think I was quite severe in my discipline of the Sprout and I believe he has found God in spite of that not because of it. I don't mean we beat him to a pulp at all, just that we were very harsh and strict and all. WG

Twinky, discussion of a book by Reverend Ted Tripp on Christian Parenting....SURE AS HECK NOT something I advocate by any means. In fact if someone looked at either of my most precious grandsons and even thought about it, he would be wearing my fist around his tonsils. I haven't read the book, just excerpts and reviews. My original intent was to see if anyone remembered this guy's name, as he sounds sufficiently legalistic and sadistic to have been a former TWI "expert". He also mentions the shoestring thing for infants as young as a few weeks who squirm during diaper changes. States any infraction is rebellion against the parent, who represents God, and must discipline the infant now so that God won't have to scourge them later. I also wondered if any Greaspotters had read the book and had a different, perhaps more objective POV. There may well be sections of the book that are godly and wonderful, but they would be totally lost on this non-spanking grandma. WG

Yes that is the one. Now I admit I've not read the book,just excerpts and reviews. However, I am absolutely appalled by it anyway. He makes points like we must strongly discipline our children so that God will not discipline them later on in life with horrible suffering. I think that is just wrong. People blame God for evil as well as good. I am also disgusted by his graphic blow-by-blow description of how to spank a child properly. He says this should begin soon after birth, at least hitting with shoestrings until they are big enough to actually turn over your lap and spank as described above. I have a two-month-old grandson who very noisily pooped in church Sunday - twice - both times during a prayer. I guess one of us should have given him a severe thrashing, according to this lunatic. WG

"What does the Lord require of of thee, but to fear (respect) the Lord the God to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God?" And then along came preachers and cult founders and added to the above list ad nauseum, ad infinitum. Here's what I try to do: Love God Love my neighbor Ignore the religious ones. By the way, where is Jesus in all of this? I sure never read anything about him beating on babies and children. But I think he walloped a few folks trying to make money off his Father's temple one time. Hmmmm. WG

It gets even worse. Rev. Tripp describes in detail the exact procedure for spanking a baby or child. Go to a private place so that you will not be interrupted OR reported to the police. Turn the child face down across your lap. Remove the child's clothing, including underpants or diaper. Spank vigorously on the bare buttocks until the child has become "sweet." By sweet he means the child has cried him/herself out and cannot cry any more. If the child is so much as whimpering, the spanking must continue until the child is silent. Sit the child up on your lap and tell him/her that you love him/her. This book gets fantastic reviews from Christian parents on Amazon and it is just one sick sick book if you ask me. Are y'all SURE he's not TWI? Sounds to me like a surefire way to train up a child to hate you and God equally. May God have mercy on his soul. WG

Yeah, I agree. I read a bunch of readers' comments on Amazon and most of them were conservative Christians who loved the book and some even wished their parents had raised THEM like that! (I guess some people like being spanked! ) I thought I'd heard everything. Just when you think TWI is the corner on evil, something like this rears its foul and stinking head. And incidentally, if you ever want to read something that takes you back to those golden days of yesteryear, just Google Mars Hill Church Seattle. This is a cult if ever I heard of one. Just like TWI, one man is in charge. Just like TWI, people who disagree are lied about and slandered, and the congregation is told to "shun" them. Just like TWI, peoples' goals and lifestyles drastically change and they feel they MUST conform to the expectations of the church. And ohmygoodness, our young pastor thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced cheese. I think somewhere down the line there's gonna be a serious conversation between the two of us - even if women ARE supposed to keep silent in the church. Yep, only males may preach or be an elder. What I think is wrong with most of these elder boards that find themselves in trouble is they are all male. They need a couple of women on there to say, WAITAMINUTE! THAT AIN'T RIGHT! I had actually thought this guy Tripp might be from TWI at some point in his miserable life. He sure sounds like it. And why do people eat this with a spoon and whipped cream? If anybody suggested to me or The Sprout that his boys/my grandsons needed beaten like that, they would be wearing a diaper up their nose...or someplace. WG

Okay, tongue removed from cheek. We are supposed to speak the truth in love. Or at least I am because I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. A putdown might be truthful and hateful, or loving and lying. Sometimes the truth needs to be spoken, including situations which involve ex-spouses who have children together, but not in front of the children. That includes about former in-laws. WG

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Thumper from "Bambi"

Our "former" church is reinventing itself as a church plant. The young pastor is hooking up with Acts 29, which is a church planting organization sponsored by Mars Hill Church in Seattle. If you Google Mars Hill Church in Seattle you come up with all kinds of sites to look at, including theirs, of course. They started out as a Bible fellowship and now have three or four campuses with 50,000 members. Guess who they sound like? Anyways, in investigating the possibility I might be faced with the founding of another cult right here in the Heartland, I ran across a couple of web-articles about this Ted Tripp, who spoke to a gathering of young parents at a special meeting at MHC. He is a pastor in PA and wrote a book "Shepherding the Heart" about disciplining children by putting the FEAR of God into them. He advocates bare-butt spankings beginning at EIGHT MONTHS of age, for such horrible crimes as squirming during a diaper change or taking off a hat. According to this one article young parents at MHC were eating this with a spoon. So in my distant memory I recall some WC lunatic who whapped his baby with a shoestring for, well, acting like a baby, and I wondered if this donkey's keister had had any former connection to TWI. This guy gives me cold chills. I deeply regret every time I used corporal punishment on my son. I cannot think of a better way to raise up an unbelieving adult than to beat a child and tell him it's from God. (he does not address beating the little girls into submission to their parents and thus to God; apparently he thinks the female is beyond redemption). WG More about the "church plant" later. WG