Watered Garden

WOW!

Yeah, I feel like I know what I know, and all this theological argument is making my head ache. I think it's a Billy Joel song that has this great line in it: "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints..the sinners are much more fun" Can't imagine spending eternity with a bunch of dour, self-righteous smug, saints like Calvin, Spurgeon and Dr***col. Jeez! I need some ibuprofen and a beer! WG

Reading all of these theological dissertations, doctrines, studies and statements makes me better understand why Dr. Wierwille burned his library and just studied the Word of God. Which is what I think I'll do. WG

Gee thank you so much. Now how do I know if I'm the elect or the non-elect? Keeping in mind that I am already saved, of course. I feel like I just got bombarded with cow pies. WG

Okay, I understand what you are saying but I don't completely agree with it. I did wonder more about the elect, though. The way I understand it, there's an extremely short "A" list. These are the elect, predestinated by God from before the beginning of time to spend eternity with Him. If your name is on the "A" list, which is very unlikely, nothing you do can remove it; kill, rape, murder, burn, loot and steal. You might not accept Christ. But you are on the "A" list so it doesn't matter. Then, there is the infinitely long "B" list. On it are the names of all those who will go to hell because God has predestinated them to go to hell. You can accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and still go to hell because you are predestinated to go to hell. For all he knows, Billy Graham is on the "B" list. The "A" list is very short, just the apostle Paul, John Calvin, and M**k Dr***col are on it for sure. Maybe a couple dozen others. All the rest of us Christians are on the "B" list. At least that's the way I read it. I looked up John Calvin in Wikipedia and sure looks like that's what he believed. And that's my main difference. I do believe that human beings are morally depraved and utterly lost without Christ as their savior. I do believe we are saved by grace. I tim. 2:4 says (God) "who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." God knows, because he's God and He has foreknowledge of all things, who will and will not accept Christ, but He'd like it a lot if everyone did. My God is a God of joy and love and peace. And justice, yes. But I don't believe He's sitting up there on a cloud, ready to zap me with a lightning bolt at the first opportunity. Do people grow through trials and tribulations, sickness and death. Well, sometimes, depending on their faith to get through it. But I don't think God steals, kills and destroys. Jesus, who knew God better than anybody, says "The thief" comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Satan, the devil, the adversary is the bad guy. At least that's what is in my Bible. WG

Rocky, Thanks so much for your help! After I posted that I did in fact find those buttons, and it is so much better. I also found the "X" where I can keep some posts hidden. I have a lot of "friends" clicking on and since most of them are from my church I can't exactly ignore them Monday through Saturday (and they are nice people). It's very helpful to hide some folks who are very frequent posters. It's nice to know what people are up to, but not absolutely everything. The pastor posts a Bible thought every morning and most of the time I agree with him. I'm more relaxed about it. It seems very innocuous. 'Preciate the help! WG

I'm sorry about your baby. I'm thankful you don't believe God caused it. Of course I believe trials will come. You find out just how much faith you do have if some catastrophe befalls you. IF you have faith in Christ, you will weather the storm, and yes, maybe come out stronger. If not, your world will shatter. IDDM hasn't shattered my world. I don't know if it's made me stronger. IF so, I would "in spite of" not "because of." By the way, I once worked for a doctor who treated people with a very serious and potentially fatal disease (a type of cancer). She was a rock for them. She could explain everything about the treatment, what she herself was doing for them to treat their disease, and encourage her patients to look forward to a good outcome. These individuals were frightened and besides themselves. She gave them hope. She had survived that disease herself. She is one of the two or three strongest people I know. So when I look at her, I understand better what you are staying. She also has a very strong belief in God. WG

But I guess the problem I have is that it sounds like God indeed does cause bad things to happen to people, but they are not really bad things, they are good things because God gave them to us. God gave me diabetes so's I could have a trial in my life and learn something from it? Am I so stupid I can't learn any other way? Tell that to a young mother who has watched her child suffer and die from a glioblastoma multiforme, enduring surgery, chemotherapy, radiation therapy, Gamma knife, steroids and pain meds and death. "Gee, Mom, aren't you happy your child suffered cancer and died before your eyes? Aren't you glad God gave that child cancer so the child could suffer and you could learn an important lesson? Doesn't that just make you want to shout 'praise the Lord?'" Tell that to a firefighter who has 3rd degree burns over 80% of his body and still lives as his skin slowly drops off in strips to reveal necrotizing tissue beneath. "Praise the Lord Brother! Aren't you blessed to be learning from this exciting trial!" But I will say this: If God Almighty gave me diabetes to bless me and teach me some important if unknown lesson, then He is a much worse Father than my earthly father was, who frequently didn't agree with my actions or behavior or attitudes, but loved me anyway and only wanted the best for me. I think this whole thing glorifies Satan, not God. I think that if the devil hands you lemons and you make lemonaid out of them that may well glorify God, that you had faith in spite of the horrors life throws at you, not because of them. I am not saying I know more than God, not at all. The early church was being persecuted and those verses you mention address the fact that if people are taking notice of them, they must be doing some good. There is this song that 4HIM does called "where there is faith" "Where there is faith There is a voice calling, keep walking, you're not alone in this world Where there is faith There is a peace like a child sleeping, hope everlasting in Him Who is able to bear every burden, to heal every hurt in my heart It is a wonderful, powerful place Where there is faith" And that is what keeps me going in spite of everything, faith in the goodness of God to carry me through trials, tribulations, sickness, disease and death, rather than faith that God brought on this on me for a wonderful reason that I will never understand. Kinda reminds me of this guy on Death Row, who was studying books on positive thinking and how to be positive all the time. In the exercise yard, he runs across a dour looking fellow inmate and says to him, "Praise the Lord, brother, isn't it a wonderful day! Isn't life wonderful?" Instead of cheering up, the other inmate becomes even more morose. "What's so good about it?" he asks. "I just found out I'm being electrocuted tomorrow morning!" The positive fellow thinks for a minute, then speaks again, even more positively: "Well, more power to ya!" WG

It's gonna rain and be in the 50s today; was probably close to 80 yesterday. But that's Ohio. Mr. Garden planted Detroit dark red beet seed and peas over the weekend in one of our beds next to the patio that was formerly going to be the home of some hydrangeas. We've never been successful with beets but he is an optimist. He also plowed up some of the garden after working on the TroyBilt which has sprung a transmission leak. We got in our little started trays last week and we have some seed to start in it. I have two big ceramic pots for the front porch and I'm thinking of starting cilantro in them; morning sun, afternoon shade sounds about right. Hopefully it won't bolt as quickly. Spring! WG

Okay. I'm very tired but I guess the one thing I heard someone say about predestination that really really bothered me was this. We were discussing in some after service church meeting and the subject came up that God predestines every thing that happens in your life after the good pleasure of His will. Everything without exception is from God. God only gives good gifts, therefore everything that happens is good. You get a promotion at work! Praise God for He arranged this. Your two year old child is hit by a car and killed. Praise God for He arranged this. This woman had recently had bilateral mastectomies for breast cancer. She stated that she believed God predestined her to have breast cancer and she knew He gave it to her for a blessing and she was soooooo thankful she had cancer because she had LEARNED SO MUCH. I worked in a cancer hospital for 9 years. Cancer is sure as heck not a blessing from God. This totally obviates the devil. There is no devil because God gives you death, disease, hurt and pain, after the pleasure of His own will? Come on, that's not the God I know and love. I thought she might have brain mets when she said that. I have insulin dependent diabetes. Now TWI said I had sinned. This woman says I have been blessed and must be thankful for the gift of a disease that will surely kill me. I say it is genetic. I say I have learned a little bit of how to take care of myself and maybe some discipline (but not enough) but I think God could teach me to be more selfdisciplined without killing me in the process. Look, my own son has done a lot of mean hurtful things to me. He doesn't listen to me. He doesn't do my will and never has, at least not since he hit puberty. But I don't think he's going to learn anything by me giving him cancer or killing his baby. But then, I'm probably on the B list so why should I care? Saved, trying to do God's will but predestined to rot in hell anyway. WG

And another thing: Why are these guys "missional" seeking out the lost if the die has already been cast and they are predestinated to go to heaven or hell anyway? Why bother? Even if someone on the "B" list gets saved, they're still gonna roast! And if someone is on the "A" list they are going to heaven no matter what. WG

I think I'm a Methodist at heart. I don't understand how these New Calvinists can talk about grace and redemption, when at the same time they believe that God already put everybody on either the "A" list, where you go to heaven no matter how bad you are, or whether or not you are "saved," and the "B" list, where if you are saved you still go to hell because God determined before the foundations of the earth that you were to roast for all eternity, saved or unsaved. Doesn't this kind of contradict a few Scriptures? Our pastor will I think eventually weed out the older, more mature folks who are not "missional" whatever that means, and replace us (or at least me) with younger, more enthusiastic, and thus more easily influenced followers. Honestly, I think he is looking for TWI of the early 1970s when everyone was young and "blessed" and eager to serve. Or maybe not. M**k Dr***ol reminds me of a combination of the two worst cult leaders I've ever known. inspirational and charismatic, but down and dirty at the same time. He's M&A people who disagree with him, says it's a sin to question him. I would probably last all of ten minutes in his church. Been there done that. And now I can smell a load of bulldang 50 miles this side of NK. WG

You know, in my situation, I really cannot imagine this guy doing any of the stuff MD does. He is a genuinely nice person. I don't think he would object a bit if he knew the VERY masculine Mr. Garden loves to work out on one of those elliptical thingys. He does agree that only men must be elders, but that a few good women may be considered as deacons. I think most of the younger women work at least part time. I guess one thing that really bothers me and I don't honestly know if it's part of New Calvinism or not - from reading of the beliefs of J. Calvin himself it would seem to be, but it's the involvement in every miniscule part of each individual's life that really would set me off. The two areas in my life that are nobody's business unless I ask for help are my bank account and my bedroom. MD seems inordinately interested in at least the latter, from some of the stuff I've read he's said. Now in all fairness I don't have any interest in his blogs or his sermons unless I have to, but still, shades of TWI2 and LCM. We'll see. WG

Catcup, you have my condolences on the death of your friend. I too am just horrified that anyone would do this to her. What a gross lack of respect. I'm so sorry. I just don't know what else to say. WG

I bet if I ever hit him in the nose with MY best shot, he'd cry like a baby! Hey, since this guy thinks he's such a testosterone-soaked macho guy, maybe he could be in an ultimate fight with LCM. The loser would have to carry the winner's jock strap through the streets of the winner's hometown. (that comment because LCM told Family WC 20 "There's not a one of you who is worthy of the privilege of carrying my jock strap." Yes he did, and I just wished I'd had the nerve to jump out of my seat, throw both hands in the air and shout "THANK YOU JESUS!" WG

Scary guy. When when I lived on the left coast, at least they didn't burn people at the stake...probably just took away their latte'. But you see what I mean? It's all about him.

Emphasis on men. They are quite firm in their belief that a woman's place is in the home. I always did think, though, that a woman's place was in the house - and in the Senate! :lol: :blink: wg

"Easy believeism" - I love it! So true, isn't it? I've gotten to the point where I tend to pull in the opposite direction, something Mr. Garden doesn't understand. He just believes what he knows the Bible says and doesn't worry too much about this other stuff. I'm just very up and down with this plant is my problem. I love the people there. The last dozen or so sermons from this young pastor have been awesome. I will say one thing for the West Coast Wonder: I've lived in that area, and anyone who can successfully plant a church there is doing something right. But I think he needs to beware; he is as susceptible to sin as the next human being and not above any of the things that tempt the rest of us. In some ways he reminds me of LCM. WG

I don't like it that other people I do not know who know some of the same people I do make comments on those individuals and it shows up on mine. I don't know how to stop it. WG

I am bringing this thread to the top because Time Magazine has stated that "New Calvinism" is the third most powerful idea of the ten most powerful ideas changing the world in the country today. www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html I hope this link works. If not, just Google new Calvinism and you can get it. We are starting a church plant (again) and the young pastor seems to be quite influenced by some of the individuals cited in the article, specifically the individual who has the big church on the west coast. I won't name him here because I don't want someone from the church to Google his name and pick up my post. M**k Dr**c*l. Anyway, I find this guy very alarming. He sounds to me like a "thug for Jesus" or something. Frankly, I don't have time to read this whole thread right now, though I will attempt to do so later today. However, I'm sure some of you know a lot more about this stuff than I do; it does sound to me like you can be saved, have Christ as your savior, and still be on the "B" list and go to hell. I am a Methodist at heart. I go to this church to keep my marriage and family together. I recently joined Faceb**k and our pastor keeps bringing up the above named individual and Spurgeon and stuff like that. If this Calvinist stuff is true, I'm probably on the B list anyway. It sounds like you could be on the very short, elect A list, be a ho', smoke crack, rob banks, never get saved and go to heaven simply because you've got the A ticket. I am probably going to drop F*ceB**k because this stuff is bothering me so much. Between worrying about which list I'm on and watching "24" last night, I hardly slept at all. WG

I have a lot of things to do that preclude sitting in front of a computer all day, except of course when I'm working and then I have no choice. Anyway, I added a few innocuous tidbits to my profile. Innocuous being the operative word here. It is apparently more protected than MySpace, i.e. you can set it up so that only those you designate can view it. I will let Mr. Garden help me figure that one out. Seems in some circles it is indeed the cool thing to do. I notice all the music people from our church are on it, so as Waysider noted, that's probably how they stay in touch. WG

I got invited to sign up for FaceBook. Then another friend also signed up for and she said, "you might as well sign up." So I did. Now what? The thing popped up a bunch of people to suggest adding as friends. I added the two friends who invited me to join up, a friend I used to work with and a friend from our church. There were scads more. Thing is, I'm just a little bit paranoid about posting a bunch of stuff/pictures/etc of me and mine on the internet. My son was on MySpace for a while and I cringed thinking about every pedophile in the world getting to look at pictures of my sweet grandson. One person, who I have not added, has this blog about 25 things going around FaceBook and how if you get tagged you have to do it, send it to 25 friends, and then back to that individual who tagged you. I can't honestly think of 25 interesting enough things about me to share. 1. name 2. age 3-25 none of your business. I'm sure some of you are on FaceBook. Whatcha think? WG

"done its dash"?????? Is that a British colloquialism? Too cool! WG

I think most WC were as much victims as anything, of the hype and false promises and lies that lured them into what they thought would be service for God. WG

Somewhat but perhaps a bit of explanation is warranted here: This regarding Fellow Laborers of Ohio: in the early 1970's E**l Bu**on, who coordinated the Limb of Ohio, spearheaded the development of this program. It was basically a two year program for those who wanted additional training, but for one reason or another didn't or couldn't go into the WC. Many did afterward in fact become WC. We worked full time jobs, in addition to duties and training at the limb HQ which was a house and meeting building which had once been a barn, and then a dance barn. The only time we had to ourselves was Saturday and Sunday afternoons and evenings. Other than that, we had a "FellowLaborers Night" which was for teachings or tapes, we had work days/nights for cleaning, planning stuff like meetings and food (an organically based food program for two meals a day every day), working in a 1 1/2 acre organic garden, working at classes that were held in the dance barn, etc. The principles for FLO were identical to those of the WC, only with a full time job and less sleep. I believe, though I'm not sure, it was thought at one time to develop several of these programs as a sort of in-state Way Corps, thus the similarities. However, VPW soon realized that the REAL Way Corps was unique in its beauty and perfection, and could not be adequately imitated, let alone duplicated. At least that is what I was told (more salt in the wounds). So I think about 1978-79 the programs were discontinued and those of us who slaved away for two, or in Waysider's case, three years went unrecognized and unappreciated into that dark night. I hope this helps explain a little of my attitude if I seem touchy sometimes about it, Twinky. WG Oh, yeah, and we did get bytched at a lot, especially the second year, so we had that in common too!