Watered Garden

We had our first official community group meeting at this guy's house last night - him, his wife, another couple and ourselves. I realized as a result of one of the exercises, where each person had to answer two questions, exactly how distrustful I am. The first question was when did you first experience the need for God and ask Him to come into your life - that's a paraphrase I can't remember the exact words. Now the Neo-Calvinists say that if you can't give the exact date, place, time and context of your being saved you most likely are not saved at all. So I passed. I do pretty much know when I wanted to become closer to God, when I asked Jesus Christ into my heart, but I just didn't think it was any of their damn business. So much for submission, huh? WG

Bringing this to the top for Mr. Gill of Shout Box. WG

This just flashed across my brain - when we were meeting for the first time with the new church plant, a commitment form was passed out. It had to do with "sacrificial giving" but also had a phrase in there about agreeing to "submission to leadership." Needless to say, we never signed one although Mr. Garden does some business stuff for them. And though I had a weak moment when I thought I wanted to, Mr. Garden never brought one home. I suspect he feels as I do, that after the TWI fiasco, ain't never signin' away my freedom again! WG

Galatians 5:12 for HIM! WG

Bridal Veil spirea is one of my fondest memories. My grandparents had a huge hedge down one side of the back of their properity, which was probably about 2 1/2 acres total. It was all barberry, nasty thorny things, but there was this one stretch close to the house of bridal veil spirea that was absolutely beautiful when it was in bloomd. I loved it for its pretty little clusters of flowers, like a tiny doll's bouquet and also for the fact it did not reach out to scratch small arms. I think of my precious grandmother every time I see one of those in bloom! WG

I'm gonna put in my two cents' worth and say IMO only the men who controlled the church before, during, and after the reformation. I watched a smidgen of a PBS program on the English reformation, which came after the German reformation chronologically. It dealt with men like Tyndale and someone else who founded the Lollards whose name escapes me, John somebody I think. I know Tyndale translated the Bible into English and Luther into probably German (?) and so they would have to had been the ones who said "Oh, by golly, I think I'll just make sure everyone understands women are inferior and men are superior. Just my opinion. I think a lot of men admire and respect women, but of course it's the ones who don't that get in a lot of trouble. WG

Like looking at a bad accident is right! I sure hope our little church plant never starts something like that or I will be making a VERY DRAMATIC exit! If you happen to run across those notes on context, etc, please post them. The whole thing is just nauseating; that's not what it says! I looked in every Bible I could find without going downstairs (my office is upstairs) and I don't see this thing about the woman's desires shall be to "rule over) her husband. Sometimes I wonder if the teachings of the Taliban are infiltrating Christianity. WG

I agree; it's obvious that other religions teach this. Look at the young couple who were executed by the righteous men of Allah for eloping. That's pretty oppressive, for both of them. But I'm talking about Christianity here because it's what I know a bit more about. Doesn't make it right. Any oppression of any believer is IMO ungodly no matter what your religion of choice. WG

Honestly, Garth I do personally believe the Bible is Holy Scripture, but I've noticed over the past few years, with the previous church plant and now this one, that Mr. Garden and I get along just fine when religious teachings on marriage don't try to weasel their slimy way in between us! WG

Lots of antiques of different periods some not going together very well. I guess you could say it's eclectic but it kind of looks like he bought it because it was old and expensive. In the immortal words of that great philosopher, Mr. T: "I pity the fool." WG

I think some of the current teaching on submission of women, whatever theological hole it crawled out of, concerns the teaching that when it says in Genesis that the woman's desire will be to her husband and he shall rule over her (Gen. 3:16) that means the woman's desire shall be to rule over her husband and he shall instead rule over her. I am providing a link to an article I found on the internet that discusses this matter, and at the bottom of the article, says this "desire shall be to thy husband" is a term for ruling over him for usurping his authority. He goes on to say the woman represents the soul, and his definition is definitely carnal. The masculine represents the spirit. So the Spirit (God) MUST rule over the soul (emotion, carnal desires, lusts, which are all feminine). http://pages.prodigy.net/tlbrown/volume3issue2.htm This is, at least in its discussion of women, submission, superiority and lordship of the male over the female, just about the biggest load of organic fertilizer this side of New Knoxville. I can't find any Bible in the house that translates that verse to mean this. It is confusing and disheartening, and utterly demeaning to women. Yet this, to my mind, is pretty much what the New Calvinists are teaching; I heard the planting pastor of Mars Hill refer to this in a teaching on marriage. Oh, yeah, I'm just busting to usurp Mr. Garden's authority. Maybe that's why I consult with him, defer to him and absolutely adore him. Next thing you know, all these evangelicals, New Calvinists, and other fundys will be wanting women to wear burkas and stay in the house with the doors locked and windows shuttered from the outside. WG EDITED TO ADD: I am in NO way advocating this doctrine, merely pointing out some of the false teachings out there that are encouraging wrong practice in man-woman relationships.

Kiddo, if it's big to you, it's big to me.

Colombia, huh? Wonder if they're running drugs with it somewhere? Wouldn't that be the mother of all ironies? Somehow it makes me sad. It was a good plane. WG

They sent it to Columbia?????? Not the District of Columbia, maybe????? And yes, the company they sold it to agreed to keep the number. As I recall from when they got it, VPW requested that PO Box number be on it. It was very, very nice inside, I agree, and waiting to see it land one time was very cool indeed. As I recall, it was sold after VPW died because it was considered old wineskins, allegedly, and also because I seem to remember LCM did not much like flying anyway, probably the real reason. Didn't he have a conniption one time because someone flew him on Acts 29 through the fringes of a thunderstorm, and ended up firing or M&A'ing the pilot? WG

Happy Easter! He Is Risen!! WG

No idea but it does say San Diego Airport. I cannot remember when it was sold, seems like after VPW died, and I believe to a funeral home chain. We got to go on a trip on Amb. 1 to a weekend in Rome City, by special invitation. We had two foster kids at that time, teenagers, and we took them along. They were both grads. I don't like to fly, and I especially don't like to fly in shaking, noisy prop jets. It wasn't pressurized very well. It wasn't much of a fun flight for me. Once there, we were separated from the kids, who later told us that their tour guides, fellow teenagers whose parents were in the family WC, revealed to them that it was like being in prison, no music except Way Productions, no freedom to go anywhere or do anything normal teenagers do. Unfortunately, we were ready to file to adopt the young man; however, he soon arranged to go live with his sister. The girl got pregnant and ran away to live with the babydaddy. I often wonder if these events would have occurred in their young lives had they not been dragged off to Rome City. WG

Sometimes God gives us little gifts to remind us of His greatest Gift. How lovely for all of you that those little fluffballs appeared! WG

Partnership. That's the way I remember it, and we were both involved from the early 1970's. LCM did twist a lot of stuff. Part of his problem was that women were asking their husbands questions, i.e. what the he11 is going on? The husbands were asking him, the wives were asking each other (I can only imagine what the questions were, I just heard some of this rant in 1993 in FWC). I definitely remember him having a hissy fit about men not keeping their women in line and to do "whatever it takes" to get them under control. Some hapless couple in Michigan was an example. He stopped short of advising a slap to the face but he was pretty sure a lot of the trouble in his ministry was the wives' fault. I think I've mentioned before somewhere that when we left the FWC we moved to the left coast for a while and the couple we knew there for some damn reason decided that the reason we were not doing well, according to them, was that I was not sufficiently submissive to my husband. Mr. Garden had NO idea why anyone would think that I was out of line, and in any event, he wasn't real sure it was anyone's business. We had never been sat down TOGETHER and told that, this woman just kept hammering me about keeping the house clean (an 800 sq ft apartment takes about 30 minutes to clean thoroughly) and yada yada. Then after several months had passed, this branch leader says to me "Now, isn't life just so much easier when you submit yourself to your husband?" I just goggled at him and mumbled "uh-huh" or something. Later, I asked Mr. Garden what was this guy talking about? Had he reproved Mr. Garden for not having me firmly underfoot? Mr. Garden was mystified. However, I think the current trend in some of the ultraconservative "new Calvinist" groups is to not quite put a woman in a burka, but she is not expected to work outside the home after marriage, and couples with children are not expected to send their daughters to college; they must be raised to become wives and mothers. If anyone wants to know where I researched this, they can ask me in a private message. I'd rather not say on this forum. WG

Peace. I'll even buy you a cyber beer.

I know it can be hard. No human is perfect. I don't know you, and I'm certainly no therapist or counselor, but I wonder if professional counseling by a real therapist or marriage counselor not connected to any religion might be of use to you and your spouse. I think it works best if you are both willing participants, though. I don't think that God values one gender over another. I don't believe for a minute that God wants females only to be wives, mothers, servants. A lot of conservative fundys teach this though, and that is such crap. If God didn't want me to use my brain, why would he give me one in the first place? Rascal, all I can offer you is prayer, and prayer is a powerful thing. But I don't believe God wants anyone to be a servant or slave as some do teach. I cannot imagine not wanting a daughter to go to college, have a profession, do whatever makes her happy and fulfilled. I'm an older generation so there weren't a lot of doors open to me, teacher or nurse and I retch at the sight of blood! Anyways, I was unhappy with Garth's comment and it had nothing to do with you. I just wish I had some words of wisdom that could be useful. WG

This is getting way too personal for me. WG

You are on very thin ice, Garth. WG

I'm sorry if I hve misled you by the use of the term "CEO." It seems to have given many of you the impression that I am a typical downtrodden Christian wife, always saying "yes, dear" or "Of course dear." Nothing could be farther from the truth. However, there are some decisions my husband is better at dealing with that I am, and there are something I am better at than he is. That's how it works. Neither of us makes a unilateral decision on a big, huge, matter without making sure the other is in accord. When we moved from a house, a neighborhood and a city I loved, he made absolutely sure I was in agreement with the move; had I expressed regrets, we'd still be there. So I'm not advocating a master-servant type relationship, okay? WG

A relative of Mr. Garden's inherited a farm of similar size in the same area in the mid-1970's and sold it a few years later for $250,000 so I would say the value of the 147 acres the was the original Wierwille farm was more than that by then, considering all the development. WG

From the Messiah7 link Dooj provided above: Momentus training appears to confuse: + psychological impact with spiritual transformation (they are related but not the same) Psychological impact would cause "snapping." Spiritual transformation would not. (IMO only) WG