Watered Garden

I was thinking about submission to leadership, the church's submission to Christ, and I think that those particular passages should set an EXTREMELY high standard for leadership. If I'm supposed to submit myself to my home group leader, pastor, etc., HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT! And he better be able to show me book chapter and verse if it's Biblical, and a whole lot of documentation for everything else. One of the most horrible things that I was ever taught regarding the above was during WOW training (1973) when I was taught to obey leadership and even if they were wrong, I would be blessed by God for my submission. Since when does God bless the submissionee, if you will, for being stupid enough to submit to a self-centered, egotistical user, male or female, if that individual is just trying to play me like a violin? If my WOW leader had told me to go jump off a bridge and I jumped, would there be extra rewards in heaven? I think not. Submission to leadership was used to control and abuse in my experience. WG

Honestly? Yes and no. I thought I would die right away. God had already punished me with a chronic illness for an unknown sin. Now, I wonder when I will die if I'll go to hell for leaving. That's a little worse than death, I guess. WG

This was a very interesting and informative thread...where did all this stuff thrown at Garth come from? Garth is Garth. I don't always agree with him either but I've learned to appreciate him anyway. WG

Yeah, I remember Rome City dining room (never enough food for the teens). I remember thinking, while lining up each and every chair, salt shaker, etc. that I was paying a very high price to learn how to line up salt shakers for the glory of the Lord. No home, kid in chaos (I just thought he was in chaos, I never saw the poor little guy), family in distress back home, but by cracky I could line up everything in that room with mathematical exactness and scientific precision! WG

It stymies me why people think pigs are worse than any other flesh we eat. My mother had a huge scar down the left side of her neck where lymph nodes had ruptured from infection when she was a child with BOVINE tuberculosis. Pigs don't sweat very well. They wallow in a nice cool mudhole to cool off. So for that matter does my dog if she can find one; dogs don't sweat so well either. WG

And you have every right to feel that way, you can be YOU on this site and don't think a thing about it! Enjoy your day! WG

"How shall we avoid death?" Uh, good luck with that. WG

I remember LCM stating on a SNS tape that he had never owned a home and saw no reason why anyone else should. I thought "You never had to, you SOB! Mommy and daddy to jock dorm to a trail at HQ, to a paid-for apt in Oklahoma to Emporia to the castle in the woods. Everything paid for by our ABS." Of course he never had to own a home; everyone else paid for his room and board. WG

I sure hope I haven't posted anything that made you feel that way. I wasn't real sure how to respond to your questions, so I just gave some examples of what happened to me and how it affected me then, and what changes I have noticed in my thoughts/attitudes/behaviors, i.e. son to grandson, that sort of thing. Anyway, I hope you find some information in these posts/threads/forums that is helpful to you. Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon! WG

That's hilarious - use the horn of plenty at a moment's notice and then build a legend around it. By the time I came along, 1973, it was used because it represented God's abundance back to the abundant sharer for his/her generosity to God, er, TWI. WG

I look at the difference between my relationship with my son while we were in TWI and my relationship with my grandson now, 13 years post-TWI. I am fully cognizant that I'm the Yiayia here and not the mom, but still, we all got to the same church, and I could well be concerned with my grandson's behavior and its reflection upon all of us. Sprout has at least some of the symptoms of ADHD. He had been in foster care from age 16 months to age 8. He was, in short, a freakin' mess, but a cute freakin' mess with a gorgeous smile and the most beautiful blue eyes you've ever seen. His behavior was not standard TWI-child behavior, listen-remember-obey without question the first time every time, to say the least. There was only one way to modify his behavior, according to TWI, and that was prolonged, severe, extremely painful thrashings. We didn't always comply, but it was definitely an issue by the time we went into FWC. He hated Rome City, was always getting smacked by someone, he acted out, and we were tossed out. His behavior did not improve. We were told to "get rid of him." We refused. We left. But the stage had been set and he has not had an easy life up to now. Now I realize there are those who will look at this and say, "Yes, BUT, it was YOUR decision to do what you did. No one coerced you to harshly discipline your son. No one forced you to enter FWC. Well, that's true, I guess, but by that time in our lives we had been around for quite a while (21 and 22 years) that our behavior was indeed pretty modified to conform with the expectations of leadership of TWI and see to it that our son listened attentively, remembered accurately, and obeyed without question. What we really needed was professional counseling. I'm sure you know how much that would have been encouraged. We were never told to just love the poor kid, figure out what was going on, TALK to him. His thoughts were irrelevant; he's a child you are the parent; the husband decides and the rest of your just fall in line. When we left TWI I told him I would probably die now, and it was all his fault. God forgive me; I know Sprout has. Now, as far as the grandkids are concerned, as long as they aren't too loud and aren't hurting anyone or anyone's stuff, I don't much worry about them. I just tell Mini all the time how much I love him, and how smart and handsome and wonderful he is. And you know what? It works! Behavior modification of children is much easier if you can do it without pain. I spent 6 years being terrified of what would happen if Sprout didn't conform to a standard that was impossibly high. WG Waysider - which Bozo said you should enjoy mopping the floor??? Someone who never touched a mop in his life is my guess! WG

((((((Waysider))))))

Back in the mid-1990's when the "no debt" policy came crashing down on TWI, homeowners were told in no uncertain terms to sell their houses and find a cheap place to rent. One non-WC couple refused and were immediately M&A'd. We were told they loved their house more than they loved God, and were idolaters. Another couple, WC grads and great personal friends of the BC, said they had devised a way to pay off their mortgage in its entirety in two years. Guess what! They kept the house AND their WC status! Nice, huh? WG

And it's not limited to the thugs we know; I fear the thugs we don't know. "The devil can quote Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a goodly apple rotten at the core." William Shakespeare, "The Merchant of Venice"

That is an amazing and enlightening observation! Thanks for posting! WG

Definitely good troop there.

As I said before, I think Mr. Garden and I do better without Bible classes, religious helpers, or anyone else trying to tell us what to do. And there are two areas of my life that are by invitation only - my checkbook and my bedroom! WG

It is apparently an airborne illness, i.e. coughing, sneezing, breathing, spitting (be glad you don't have to sit in a teaching or after meal discussion of the Great Spitter). The President was reiterating common sense prevention activities, i.e. wash your hands, don't go out if you are sick, keep your kids home if they are sick, go to a doctor if your temperature is elevated over 101.5, wash your hands, cover your cough (with inside of your elbow, NOT your hand), etc. Prayerfully this will pass in a few few weeks. Mr. P I think you had it, or something similarly ugly. Glad you and yours are okay. Flu shots are a crap shoot anyway, trying to guess the virus that will prevail that winter and then inoculating against it. WG

And no, you couldn't trust people. I was in FLO when Waysider was. One girl a year ahead of me in the program asked, begged actually to borrow two turquoise and silver bracelets to wear one time. They were courting gifts, if you will, from my dad to my mom when they were dating. So she keeps them two weeks, despite my pleas for their return, until one day I notice she has them locked up in her car! I marched her outside and told her if she didn't hand them over immediately I would tell the limb leader, or call VPW or break her car window and take them. She was of course all huffy about it, after all, weren't we sisters and weren't we supposed to have all things common? Not those bracelets, bozo. The whole idea of communal living seemed to me that in many cases it was the have-notes, people too lazy or uneducated to go get a damn regular job, like Waysider and I did, living off those who had jobs and worked our butts off to keep the wheels spinning round and round. There weren't many of them, but the ones that did were experts at working the "sisters in Christ" and "all things common" business until they would guilt you out of your gold teeth fillings. I saw this on the WOW field too, but not to such a great extent. My WOW sister was on her interim year in the 4th Corps and got a check every month from her spiritual partnership money. This was for her to use to help support herself on the field. She wouldn't use a dime of it to help with food, rent, transportation, anything. She always had nice clothes though. Then when I got some extra money in from a retirement fund in the state where I had worked, guess who wanted to go out to dinner on my dime? The WOW's who came to the state where I lived before I went WOW stole a bunch of furniture I had left with my former roommate, and they were freakin' interim WC! I realize I come across as a materialistic bytch. I'm sorry. This is America. I'm happy to share, but not so that someone else can sit on her butt and mooch. WG

I just find it really sad that people still think God only cares about those who are active in TWI. I do understand, though. I still, 14 years later, wonder sometimes if I'm going to he11 or outside of God's favor. Then I remember God is bigger than anything - even TWI. WG

Thank you, Roy. I needed to read that this morning. God bless you and have a wonderful day! WG

I did some cybersnooping regarding the organization that is sponsoring this church plant, and they list their requirements for planting pastors; one is a wife (they only sponsor men, of course) who have participating wives and that they are in submission to each other. Yet the church that owns the church plant organization teaches that women are to serve their husbands, and they are the only ones to be submissive. The husband is to lead the wife and to rule over her. Sometimes I just have to laugh at these folks who are so "into" the new, tough, Calvinistic he-man church. The contradict themselves, and they contradict Scriipture. They teach that Jesus came to call MEN, to teach MEN and to LEAD men and to build His church of MEN. So I guess that means between Matthew and Revelation there aren't any women mentioned? Bet they got their own version of the Bible, too. On a slightly different subject: I'm no feminist. I'm a Christian. That means I believe in Jesus and what He taught and try to do what He taught. The irony is, I have no desire and feel no calling to teach anyone. I just want to be a voice to be heard, not patted on the head, not told in a godly, loving way, "Shut UP Stupid Bytch!" That's all. WG

Won the battle but not the war! His head has been crushed beneath the feet of the triumphant Lord! WG

Thanks!

Waysider...EXACTLY!!!!!!! Rascal, I don't think you are broken beyond repair, I think you are just being cautious and wise. I do not believe for one milimicron of a nanosecond that I have to commit to a group of people, a building, or a name, other than the Name of Jesus Christ as my Savior. I consider myself a member of the Body of Christ. All the rest is just window dressing, hype, and an excuse to ask for money. Boy, am I a touchy little thing this morning or what? WG I don't know how to put one of those cool one-liners on the bottom of my posts like y'all do, but if I did, it would be a line from that song that introduces one of the CSI shows: "We won't get fooled again!"