Goey

Now don't that take the cake ....... A spiritual "mentor" having his apprentice tell a bald face lie to deceive us about the source of an attempted definition of "love" ... As I undertand the scriptures, lying and deception are not a part of "charity" . Your deception is a mockery of the very thing you attempted define. You mock God Himself. Gregg, you and your mentor understand nothing of real charity. You should both consider a different vocation where dishonesty and deception are the norm. --- Like politics or used car sales.

Roy, I didn't say that order had no meaning, but rather that in that in that particular section it probably does not. In any case God didn't write the Bible, people did. Why spend so much time and effort on numerological guesswork and miss the real message?

God is love. Charity (love) can no more be defined in a few lines than you can define God himself. With both however, you know/understand when you see and experience them. I doubt "manefestations" have very much at all to do with true "charity" seeing as how they can be used/operated without it. ( 1 Cor 13)

The main problem I have with "church" is the priority put upon the sermon - like it is the focal point or crux of the worship service. Listening to a sermon is not really "worship" at all. I think that many churchs are in a rut in this. The sermon is a dogmatic sacred cow - part of the church ritual. Think about it. ... Usually about half or more of the service is dedicated to having one man or woman preach to a captive audience. It is one way communication only. In that it is no different from the TWI and offshoot fellowships I was around --one way communication to a captive audience. TWI called it a "teaching" instead of a sermon. Little difference. Still a sacred cow and ritualistic part of the "service". However, unlike my experience in TWI and offshoots, most churchs that I have atteneded have other functions, like sunday school/clases where you can ask questions, offer opinions & even share your heart -- and generally not be looked down upon for doing so.

Mrs. Wierwille or anyone else who knew about VPW's abuses of women and did nothing, is guilty of complacency. This complacency helped allow VPW's abuse to continue for as long as it did. These people made the choice (for different reasons) to be complacent. Was Mrs Wiereille a victim? Sure she was, but being a victim in one thing doesn't make complaceny in another the right moral choice. People suffered because of this complacency. These complacent ones (Mrs Wierwille included) allowed women to suffer VPW's sexual abuses so they themsleves would not have to "suffer" the consequences of not being complacent. Young women were "sacrificed" to VPW's abuses for a perceived greater cause -- whether it was continued personal comfort, advancement in leadership, loyalty to VPW, or even as expected collateral damage in "moving the word". This kind of complacency can not be justified - only explained. It was dead wrong. Would speaking out or confronting VPW have stopped it? -- I don't know, but to have tried and failed is better than not to have tried at all.

TWI Hierarchy ? ..........The Way Tree

God willing, I'll be there. I'll even help with the dishes and stuff. I'll stay at my uncle's house in Conroe which is very close to the Woodlands. Just let me know when.

Hi Folks, By definition, barbequing is slow cooking at low fairly low temperatures (200 - 240 degrees F), with indirect heat, using either wood, charcoal or both for the heat source. Sometimes grilling is mistakenly called barbequing, usually by unlearned backyard cooks. These are usually the same folks that smear grocery store "barbeque sauce" over a good piece of meat and then cook it over a too hot gas or charcoal grill until it is burned black and crusty, and then call it "barbeque". Gad ! Grilling is cooking directly over the heat source, using wood, charcoal or (God forbid) natural gas/propane for fuel. Steaks,burgers and chicken are usually grilled. You can barbeque chicken, but the meat ends up reddish in color and a some (ignorant) folks think this means it is not properly cooked, so you end up having to explain to them that it is the smoke that causes the red color not blood. Fish (catfish, snapper, salmon, redfish, flounder, tuna steaks etc.) can also be grilled. The trick to keeping it from falling apart is to quicky sear it in a skillet before putting in on the grill. Just about any meat, (not just beef) can be "barbequed". Sorry David, but barbeque is not defined by the cooking of beef, even though beef brisket is my favorite. Some excellent barbeque is done with pork ribs or a pork butt. However, you are correct that roasting a pig over direct heat is not technically barbeque, even though it can be quite tasty. Sometimes barbequing is errantly called "smoking". True smoking is done at temperatures below 130 degrees where the chemicals in the cool smoke "cook" meat instead of heat. Hope this clears things up a bit.

The original question was: "How many actual qualified/credentialed scripture scholars, theologians, etc., ever joined TWI? (i.e., those who were scholars prior to their initial encounter with TWI)" My guess is probably none, depending upon how you define scholar. A true "scholar" could not have lasted in TWI under either Wierwille or Martindale unless they sold out their scholarship for loyalty to VPW or LCM. What real scholar would have supported or endorsed the sloppy and kindergarten level research done by VPW or LCM ? I don't know much about the actual Research Department at TWI under VPW, except that sources have told me that all research had to conform to VPW's teachings and any research findings that contracdicted or disagreed with VPW's was summarily squashed or discredited without evaluation. I find it hard to believe that any true scholar would continue under those conditions. I can only imagine the frustration of those that truly wanted to do good research under VPW while hoping againt hope that someday TWI would change. Then they got LCM .... It is a sad state of affairs when the most acclaimed research that came from someone out of TWI was a paper condemning adultery -- like it takes a PHD to figure that out. In all fairness though, I agree that scholarship, degrees, etc, (like sincerity) are no guarantee for truth, neither do they necessarily result in faith. So it seems that TWI and its top MOG's were lacking in all of these. Christian faith should be in God, Christ and the Word, not in blind loyalty to the teachings of a certain man or denomination. Give credit for deliverance to God and Christ not to Wierwille or any other man/organization. Men do not deliver people, God does.

Christian Reconstructionists

Haven't seen the film, but there is no doubt that there is something going on. The ice caps are melting and the permafrost line is moving further north in many areas. There has been a measurable increase in golbal average temperature. These are indisputable facts. I agree with George that is is impossible to tell what the cause or causes may be. There are too many factors involved and some of them may even be unknown. I think it is bad science and foolishness to conclude that the cause is strictly due to human activities that result in "greenhouse gases", although these could indeed be major factors. There are other things that could be major factors as well -- things like volcanic activity, solar spots, the Earth's changing magnetic field, phytoplankton levels,. etc. These, among other things must also considered along with greenhouse gases. But ....even though human activities may not be the sole cause of "global warming", these are the things that we do have some control over, so I think it is equally foolish to ignore these things or not take prudent and appropriate action because we aren't completely sure of what's going on.

There are different levels of "proof". In a many civil cases, the level of proof is called the "preponderance of the evidence". This is when the judge or jury is persuaded that the facts are "most likely" in favor either the defendant or the plaintiff. There is also a bit higher level that is known as "clear and convincing evidence" which is used in certain civil matters. In a criminal case, the rules of evidence are stricter. The evidence must pursade the judge or jury of the guilt of the defendant ... "beyond a reasonable doubt". Hearsay evidence is generally not allowed. I know this is not a court of law, but an eyewitness account (experience) is considered "evidence" in a court of law -- and sure, the credibility of the witness(s) must be considered. So in regards to VPW, it depends upon level of proof that you demand in order to "convict" him of the things he has been accused of. Do we want a criminal conviction or a civil judgment ? --- Or do we just want to know what most likely happened? As for me, the evidence I that I have seen and heard is "clear and convincing." However, in a strict sense, some if it could be considered "hearsay", (he said, she said) and would not be allowed in a criminal case.

I was just WOW slime. I was pretty happy just being slime. Never really had the desire to upgrade to scum status. You know, all that floating on top business... However, at times I kept pretty busy doing the bidding of some of you scum.

I believe along the same lines as Abigail. Some of it is metaphor and some quite literal. For example, when it says God created the heavens and earth, I take that literally. When it refers to the tree of life, I see that as figurative. I see Genesis as much more than a parable, although I agree it has some deep figurative and symbolic language. I agree with Mr. Campbell about getting wrapped up in geneogies and timelines as opposed to being absorbed in the heart of the message. When I approach the scriptures, I try to ask myself, what is the heart of the matter? What is the idea or concept that is being presented, and how can I apply that to the here and now?

If your computer goes in to automatic shutown and the timer starts, you can prevent it from shutting down by: Start > Run > then type "shutdown -a" . This will abort the automatic shutdown and let you keep doing stuff.

Exie, Download Hijackthis Unzip it to a folder or to the desktop then run hijackthis.exe - saving the log file. Then cut and paste the contents of the log file into a new post. It's probably a good idea work with just one person at at time, so John should probably take it from there.

If you deleted the registry key that loads the trojan and it comes back, the actual cause was not taken care of. Deleting the registry key doesn't kill the process that may be still running in memory. Along with deleting the key, you also have to stop the running process before you restart the PC, and then find and delete the maliscious executable or dll file(s) as well. Also, some viruses/trojans load from the registry as a "process" and msconfig is pretty helpless there - as it only looks a a few of the common places where programs are loaded from. Some trojans (like certain variations of this one) can actually load from the virus chest or from the quarantine folder - depending upon the antivirus software you have. I know it can from Mcaffee, not sure about Norton. I use Avast and it has not let me down in 3 years. The only way I know to truly get rid of this kind of trojan. 1. Make sure system restore is off. 2. Boot in safe mode 3. Delete the registry key that loads the trojan 4. Delete the infected executable or dll file(s) -- (there may be more than 1. ) 5. Delete all temporary internet files (precautionary) 6. Delete all "temp" files. ( precautionary) 7. Delete all files in the virus chest or quarantine folder. Don't skip this ... Then do a virus scan again, It should not be detected by the antivirus program. Restart normally. It should be gone. If it is initially gone and then comes back later on, there is a program still on the system that when run manually, rewrites the registry key, and recreates the malicious files. This program needs to be removed/deleted. The problem will keep coming back forever until this is done . But if all went well in 1-7 it should be gone and should not return. Turn System Restore back if you use it. I don't use System Restore as it has seldom been helpful to me, but you may want to keep using it. Consider using Firefox as your Internet Browser - it is much more secure than IE is customizable with some really cool and useful plug-ins or "extensions".

This is the politics forum .........

Clay, I was simply asking for clarification - no more, no less. (and in a nice way I thought). But it seems that even asking for more clarity offends you. It shouldn't. It's called communication. You answered well in you second sentence -- "Like all the books in the world couldn't hold it like it says in John." That answered my question. But then you went on a unnecessary and unwarranted tirade about defensiveness and gun pulling. Who is really being defensive ? Clay, since when is asking for clarification or meaning to something said here - equivalent to "ready to pull a gun" ? I suggest that your gun anaolgy is quite misguided. But, you know what really sucks? It is when people refuse to communicate - or cry foul everytime someone tries to communicate with them (unless it is for the purpose of support & agreement) Sometimes I wonder if you actually want to "communicate" at all. I think it may be you that needs to lighten up a bit.

What's that supposed to mean Clay? To whom are you referring? ... GSC as a whole or certain individuals? May I kindly point out that it is not GSC's purpose to "hold" to any particular doctrine, concept or teaching.

Vulgar language bothers me a bit. especially when it is used in front of my daughter. It wasn't too long ago when I ran into a local guy that I used to work with -- James. He sat down at that table next to me and my daughter to talk a bit. Every other word out of his mouth was f* in some form or another, along with GD and assorted others expletives. I politely pointed out that my 7 year old daughter was present and to please stop the vulgar language. He did for a while then it came right back out. I asked again. He apologized, but in just a few minutes it started again. So I stood up and got right next to him and asked him how he would like it if I slapped his mouth shut. His eyes got big, and he said to me. "Bill .... man .... you don't have to get ugly about it ..." ++++++++++++++++ Here's another story ...... Last year, I was at Samm' Family Restaurant in Florence. A young couple ( early 20's) came in and sat down to order food. The man was wearing a black T-shirt that read in 6 inch bold white letters: F**K Y'ALL I'M FROM TEXAS Well, a rancher type guy and his family (wife & young kids) who had already ordered food, were sitting one booth down from this couple. I watched this rancher guy getting redder and redder in the face till he was almost fuming. He finally got up and went over to the young man and told him that his shirt was offensive to him and his family, as well as offensive to the state of Texas. Then he went up to the cashier and told her that if that fellow stayed in there with that shirt on that he was leaving with his family - and never coming back - and to cancel their order. The cashier was kinda wishy-washy and not really wanting to make a call. Thats when the owner, David, came out and saw what was going on. He then asked the man with the shirt to either change it or leave. The man said something about it being a free country and something about freedom of speech. Thats when David told him, "let's see how free you feel when the cops get here and throw your butt in jail. ( Small town Texas) That's when the T-shirt man's girlfriend said to him. "See Bob, I told you this fu**ing town was all f**ed up." They left in a huff, slinging rocks from behind the tires as ther pick-up truck peeled out of the parking lot. Is there a point to all this ? I dunno .... maybe you can find one.

Large, fancy and colored fonts annoy the hell out of me.