Goey

You mean where by mastering PFAL as the Word of God, and doing all 9 all the time that you will then morph into your spiritual body and receive eternal life?

It gets better. Wait till you hear the one where Jesus returns, appearing in the clouds and holding a PFAL Book in his right hand.

Fer crying out loud ....... If a devil spirit is so smart that he can manipulate or alter the complex chemicals in the brain, then counteracting relatively simple compounds such as an aspirin, anethestics, etc should be a walk in the park for any half-witted demon. This kind of stuff most likely came from VPW's devil spirit paranoia/mania. He attempted to explain all things "bad"" in terms of direct attacks by demons. Spiritual warfare you know. No wonder people were labeled posessed so much in TWI.

If I had remebered it I would have brought it up, because its downright stupid. If an aspirin can drive out a devil spirit then so can a soapy enema or a good shot of tobasco sauce. Maybe garlic wreaths do repel vampires. I am glad you mentioned it Mike. It shows how VPW grapsed at straws to make his theological system fit like a hand in a glove. Logic: Believer 1: I have a headache Beleiver 2: Doctor says that disease is oppression from Satan and a headache is disease (dis- ease) Do you want me to pray for your deliverance & healing? Believer 1: No, I'll just take an aspirin. 30 minutes later ..... Believer 1: My headache is gone. Believer 2: Wow, Aspirin really can drive out devil spirits just like Doctor taught ! Believer 1: Huh? Wierwillian logic at its best.

The notion that cancer is devil spirits is absurd. If it were devil spirits then drugs, chemo, radation would have no more effect on it than a warm soapy enema. The only possible "cure" would casting out the demons. (Maybe an enema with warm holy water might work?) VPW's absurd notion stems from poor logical deduction. ie: All life is spirt. Cancer has life. Cancer is therefore spirit Sickness is from the devil Cancer is sickness Cancer is from the devil Conculsion: If cancer then is spirit and from the devil it must therefore be "devil / spirit" (ie Possession ) Can anyone besides me see the logical fallacies involved ? ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is how many TWI doctrines and "spiritual laws" came into being ... from VPW's flawed application of basic logic upon scripture taken out of its context. It looks good at first glance but when put the test, it fails miserably.

For me it boils down to this. If VPW did not abuse /rape women, then those who have claimed he did have born false witness against him. They are all liars. If VPW did abuse/rape, women as has been claimed, then he could not possibly have been the MOG that many of us believed him to be and his ministry was void of any blessing from God. To me the evidence is overwhelming that VPW was not the MOG we believed him to be. The testimonly of the women who claimed they were abused by VPW is just a fraction of that evidence. When other evidence is brought to bear, a clear pattern of dishonesty and sociopathic behavior emerges. When a scociopath is in a position of nearly unlimited power, abuse will almost always happen. This lends even more credibility to the testimony of those who have spoken out has having been abused by VPW. In other words the charges line up with what is likely when a sociopath is in a position of power and trust. WTH you are a hoot. I suspect that you were abducted by aliens and deeply probed repeatedly. Maybe if you shed a few tears it would help you to come to grips with it. Aaaah .... but maybe that pain is all behind you.

Honestly, I never put VP up on the petestal that many folks did. This is probably because I rejected authority from the time I was a kid. Sure I admired him and all that, even defended his teachings in public. I even imagined him to be an apostle. But I never quite got the doting and glassy-eyed adoration. This annoyed me at times. I knew I could never go Corps. I was in TWI to learn the scriptures and kiss the girls, not to dote over leaders. With all the hoopla that went on when he came to town or when he entered a room, you'd think Jesus Christ had just come back for a visit. But I doubt that JC would have exepcted the chairs to be lined up geometrically with a string (we didn't have lasers in the 70's), or the marks in the carpet from the brush in the vacuum cleaner to be perfecty parallel to each other. When I would read the scriptures concerning Paul and other leaders , I didn't see where they were treated like royalty or that they expected to be. I didn't see where Paul had doting servants attending to his every whim. I though leaders were supposed to serve. It bugged me about VPW, but I let it go. I was once told that VP as the MOGFOT "served us the word" and therefore he needed folks to attend to his physical needs so he could serve more of the word. I was a WOW in Indiana in 77. Our family cordinator once told me that if VP told her to jump off a bridge and kill herself that she would do it. Loyalty misdirected I thought at the time. I surely would not have. No koolaid for Goey. That comment got my attention though. I wondered how many others had that same kind of thinking. It kinda scared me. But I stuck around for a couple of more years till the budding legalism got too much for me.

Dot, I think you misunderstood my intent and purpose. Most of the questions were rhetorical. A few were not not. I have been recently accused by my remaing family of "walking in darkness", "thinking evil", and being "separated from God" - partly and mosty becasue of my stand against the actions of VPW. Actions that I stronly believe did happen. My family's stance is that all of the VPW accusers are liars with an axe to grind. All of them. They hold VPW up as a true MOG with a few human failures common to all men. And therefore with VPW being a true MOG, all of the accusation are from Satan to discredit a man who spoke for God. Logically, this would be an expected if not required response from anyone who held VPW in very high esteem, and with that hard bias, looked to the scriptures as (VPW taught them) for answers. From that point of view and bias, as true MOG, VPW could not possibly have done the things he has been accused up. So logically, they can only conclude that all the accusers must be liars and children of the devil. For me, since I did not experience VPW's abuse personally, I must decide based upon the preponderance of the evidence and the testimony of eye-witnessess. I did personally experience abuse from those taught both directly and indirectly by VPW. aka Way Corps. I did see ordained & married Way Corps men actively seeking sex with women other than their wives. I was told in the mid 70's by a Way Corps lady, that there were sex orgies and wife swapping going on at HQ and that if you were spiritual enough to handle it it was ok. I have had a person who was almost raised by VPW tell me that when his parents died VPW took him on a special flight in the jet to tell him that he should transfer the deed to family farm to TWI. I have had dear friends who were once glassy-eyed admirers of VPW prior to entering the Corps, later tell me of the meanness and callousness of both VPW and Mrs Wierweille after to getting to know them both very closely. I have no reason to doubt the testimony of these witnesses. I have read the testimony of many here that I do not know personally. I think most is reliable based upon the preponderance of the evidence. However, I do accept the possibility that a few folks may indeed have an axe to grind. These would most likely be people who were in a position of power (possibly abusers themsleves) and lost that power when they fell out of favor with VPW/TWI. As a Christian (not a very good one) I know that bearing false witness is a grevious transgression. I think that accusing someone of bearing false witness when they are not, is probably just a bad, if not worse. So, in the extremely remote chance that I am wrong concerning VPWs actions I posted my thoughts, hoping for some enlightened dialog to follow. Hope that makes sense.

I must have missed most of the posts where there were unrelenting condemnations ( againt VPW),. I do however see where the sin is condemned. In my time here I doubt that I have read more than a handful of posts that actually "condemn" VPW. By condemn, I mean in the biblical sense of pronuncing both guilt and sentence. Few here have ever suggested tht VPW will burn in hell or that he was worthy of death. That kind of judgment is up to God and anyone going that far is crossing the line as far as I am concerned. Oldies, what you mean by "condemn". There is quite a different between exposing harmful sin and condemnation. I don't think I have ever read where someone claimed to be motivated by God or the holy spirit in the condemnation of VPW. I think you are hearing something that is not being said. I disagree with the other poster that you BS counter is broken. I suspect instead that it is really a BS generator and that it is working fine. I think the Pharisee comparison is fair in regards to VPW or to anyone else who holds themselves up as a member of the spiritual elite while exempting themselves of the burdens they place on others. It basically refers to hipocracy and self- righteousness. Not all pharisees were murders so your indignation is basically unwarranted in the context of comparing VPW to a pharisee.

Apples and organges ? I don't think so I have never looked in either Paul's or Jesus' eyes to know if they were telling the truth. The information comes from the pages of an ancient book that many of us hold to be a reliable witness. So we believe. Forget VPW for now. Is it more more cruel to expose the damaging behavior of a religious leader, - or to allow it to continue because that leader may have helped me at one point -- to sweep it under a rug, deny it, justify it while allowing the harm to continue against others? The Catholic church may be a good example of this in regards to a few priests. Now in regards to VPW -- Does maintaing his legacy as a good bible teacher preclude the telling of the whole story, warts and all? Who is harmed by telling the whole story? Who may be harmed by not telling it? Who can benefit either way? Question: Why didn't more people come forward when VPW was alive? A serious question that requires serious and honest answers. Were that many people afraid to speak out, to confront? Did VPW have that much power over people or did we simply allow him that power... to the point that many of us turned a blind eye and didn't care who was harmed as long it wasn't us? I know of quite a few people that stayed with TWI/VPW/LCM and saw the bad stuff going on, maybe even participated in it, but only spoke out after the bad things happend to them. Is this human nature or something more? As for me, I wouldn't like a Website dedicated to my sins. But then again, I was not a MOG with a following of tens of thousands of trusting people looking up to me as spiritual giant. And I don't have a trail of disillusioned or guilt ridden folks in the path of my alleged "sins". And I don't have a remnant of dedicated followers 20+ years after my death that still believe that I hung the spirtual moon. I don't think that this Website or any other is DEDICATED to VPW "sins". It is about making sense of our TWI experience. It is therefore necessary, as a part of that process of making sense, to adresss and discuss the accusations against VPW. Have a nice weekend.

My very sentiments. If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were. The "evil speaking" counter accusation of the VPW defenders is a misuse of scripture IMO. Any so-called minister of God who unrepentantly abuses those he claims to lead and nurture needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. Side note: The fact that a person is in a position of authority in a religious organization does not necessarily mean that God put him/her there or that they are true ministers at all. It is interesting that those who accuse me of walking in darkness because I have "spoken evil" of VPW have no problem "speaking evil" of people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Bennie Hinn and others, saying they are phoney money mongers. While it could be true, what is the difference? Does "thinketh no evil" mean that when a man or woman's actions are blatently contrary to God's Word, (adultry, theft, unkindness, greed, pride, etc) that we should simply ignore these things and cast them out of our minds? Especially if it is in regards to our leaders or those who may have taught us "the Word"? It is interesting that many of the people that use this "think no evil" doctrine are those who would set themsleves up as spiritual leaders themsleves. Go figure ...

Garth, That is hardly in the "same vein". But you made your point. Many of us having never seen or experienced the deeds of VPW accept that they happen based upon the preponderance of evidence - upon the testimony others. Is this good enough? Are these witnesses credible? Many people "came to God" (whatever that means) through TWI and the teachings of VPW. From a purely Christian prospective how could it be possible for VPW to have done such evil things and still bring people to God? Is is possible that those who deny that VPW did such things have their heads burried in the sand and therefore refuse to even weigh the evidence against him? That they hold VPW in such high esteem for his teaching of "the word" that they refuse to look at the other stuff. Many of these accuse the others of being ministers of darkness and liars with an axe to grind. I was recently accused of this. Certainly there are enough witnesses to support the charges against VPW. However, there were false witnesses against Jesus. (Someones else's analogy, not mine. I am not putting VPW in the same class as Jesus Chrtist). Are witnesses alone therefore good enough? The Bible shows by example and by warning that there will be false witnesses against men and women of God. So wouldn't it be a natural and expected response for those who believe VPW to have been a true MOG to also believe the witnesses to liars? Can we fault them? Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ? Does the Bible suggest that it is "speaking evil" to reveal and oppose the "sins" of a respected leader of religion? Should we shut up and let it ride so as not to speak evil? Or is this a convenient interpretation of scipture to allow Christian leaders to keep their status and power regardless of their behavior? Now let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are way overblown. Yeah maybe he had a few affairs but the women were willing. Yeah, he smoked his Kools and maybe drank his liquor to excess. And maybe he was a bit mean at times, but arent we all? But look at all the folks that got saved and were delivered as a result of VPW's ministry. In this scenario by accepting what the witnesses have said as true and repeating it to others would we be ministers of darkness and therefore separated from God? Do we become false witnesses ourselves which is an abomination to God and a deady sin ? Are we willing to accept the consequences if we are wrong about VPW?

Is it possible that most of us here are deceived? That VPW never really abused anyone? Is it possible that all of those that have claimed that VPW abused them sexually are liars with an axe to grind? Is is possible that the drugged rape alegations are lies from the pit of hell? Is is possible that those who have alleged his alcoholism, meanness, vindictiveness, plaigerism, money mongering, womanizing, etc are also liars with an axe to grind? Is it possibe that his alleged plaigerisms where just honest mistakes? Is it possible that the snowstorm really did happen and that God really did speak to VPW and that God really did did teach VPW the word of God like it had not been known since the First Century? Is it possible that those of us who have revealed or even repeated to others the "sins" of VPW and others "ministers" in TWI - that we are Ministers of Darkness fighting against God? Is is possible that Word that VPW taught more than covers for any sins that he may have committed and that his "sins" if any were just those sins common to all humans? Is it possible that even if VPW did commit the things that he as been accused of that God could and would allow him to become or remain a minister ( eg. apostle, teacher, pastor ) even though he never repented of those sins? Is it possible?

What a great idea. Ahhh yes ..... There also needs to be an official Refrigerator Inspection Team. -- A team of highly skilled and highly trained people to check for dust on top of refrigerators in the homes of all Way Followers. Cause you know that if there is dust on top of the refrigerator that the lady of the house has a personal hygiene problem in the nether regions. This odiferous condition (though very hard to discern ( without refrigerator inspection ) invites devil spirits into the home leaving the entire family spiritually bankrupt. This is an immutable spiritual law most of us probably forgot.

Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? This questions presumes there is or was an actual baby. Was there ? You must drain off the dirty bath water first, then look for a baby. I only found a few disconnected members. While VPW/TWI certainly did not get everything wrong, what they did get wrong was significant enough to put some holes in the figurative cistern. Even a small hole in the bottom of a cistern will eventually drain it. It may be a case of a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Bibical Accuracy? Hmm ....... In regards to TWI and other some other groups, I'm thinking that biblical accuracy is a fallacy. Biblical "accuracy" in TWI was derrived only by applying VPW's keys to the scriptures. You could only get accuracy and therefore the true word of God, when you followed VPW's formulas. So logically, to get the true and "accurate" Word, the formulas themselves would have to be infallible and then they would have to be inerrantly applied. (But it seems that VPW or the current MOG/ WOG could actually do that.) Looking deeper, VPW's formulas depend upon many presumptions. Some were simply declared by fiat - like first usage . It was presumed that Bullingers' work on figures was basically inerrant. Is it? Who decides if something is literal or figurative? Heres what was done many times. If the scripture didn't "fit" with a preconceived idea, it was declared either figurative or literal to force it to fit. Voila ! Accuracy! It was presumed that the canon of scruipture was infallible, that all the books in the modern (Protestant) Bible are indeed God breathed. This presumes that men at the Council of Carthage some 4 centuries after Jesus - made a perfect decision as to which books/letters got the nod and and which ones got the axe. This is seldom questioned or looked at objectively - just mosty blindly accepted. TWI's and some other groups versions of accuracy also depend upon the idea that God dictated each and every book or letter in the Bible word for word, or even iota for iota. Yet there little to no evidence that any NT writings came in that manner. Did general church correspondence such as letters from Paul or Peter to specific churches rightly get declared the inerrant God breathed Word of God some 500 years later? There's a lot more to consider but for the sake of brevity .... If the presumptions are not correct then formulas are not perfect and whole idea of "accuracy" is built upon shifting sand. Mathematical exactness? Hardly. Love is not mathematical . IMO you need heart more than "accuracy" anyway.

Lots of good stuff here. Wasn't it taught in TWI that we renewed our minds to "The Word", meaning the written Word?. Thus the retemories and other such things, the idea being that if you stuff your mind with scripture ( as interpreted by VPW/LCM et al) you become a new creation. Wasn't it also taught that the written word basically replaced the "absent" Christ? Now if we are to bring "every thought into capitivity to the obedience of Christ then out only choice was to be obedient to the "written Word" interpreted by TWI. This pretty much precuded any kind of personal relationship with Christ, as he was absent. Also Doc Vic taught that the OT was "for our learning" as opposed to for doctrine. Then he puts the Gospels (which include the words spoken by Jesus) into the Old Testament and in a different "administration" so that they basically don't apply to us. How may times in TWI did you ever hear "Jesus said ....." ? Not many I bet. Heard a lot of "Paul said ..." and "Doctor said ..." but not too much of "Jesus said ..." And it is to Christ that we are to bring our thoughts into obedience? Scripture is good as far as it goes but is no replacement or substitute for our living Lord and Saviour - Jesus Christ. I have come to believe that the "renewed mind" has little if anything to do with "scripture" (memorizing, quoting, disecting, etc) and a whole more lot to do with a personal relationship with Christ. Consider that the very early Christians to whom Paul spoke of the renewed mind, did not have Bibles with the Gospels and all the letters of Paul and Peter to memorize. So that couldn't have been what Paul was referring to in regards to the "renewed mind."

Garth, I hereby dub you King of the Strawman.

Garth, I think you jumped the gun a bit in your zeal to discredit a VPW teaching. I think VPW got this one basically right. My guess is that the dog/cat owner is trying to pull off a little scam. The story seems suspicious to me.

Considering Wierwille's (and Geer's) character or lack there of the main transgression was taking power and control away from Doc Vic and later from Geer. "The Word" was just a facade that VPW, Geer, Martindale and the BOT hid behind. Power and control were always the main priority. Damn the word. Damn good doctrine. The corporation was set up so that the "leaders" would never be accountable to the followers. The BOT was never interested in fixing anything except their positions. True, but deception was a huge part of maintaining power and control. Clarity was never on the BOT's agenda. Dammage control was the order of the day. The "ministry" was lost and doomed from the beginning. If we had "known" the real TWI and the real VPW from the begining, most of us would never have gotten involved in the first place. The Word, and the vitality that come with it can never be lost in the life of a believer unless that person relies upon a person or a group to make it live for them. If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.

Well done Oak ......

Groggy Posted: Groggy Boy, I perceive that you are not well schooled in debate, hermeneutuics, exegesis, or even basic logic. Too bad, since you seem to be of at least average intelligence. When an assertation is made, the burden of "proof" falls upon the one making the assertation not upon those who might question or dispute it. You should have learned that in Jr High School - ( I assume you attended that far ?) The above quote represents a laughble and feeble attempt at "proof" for such a bold assertation. All you did was regurgitate some scripture references and declare by fiat that they support your "definition." --- No exegesis, no exposition, no explanation of how these references imply your definition or what inferrences were made to come to the conclusion that "this is the true meaning of Charity" --- a most bold claim, rivaling even some of VPW's outlandish assertations and definitions. Your "evidence" only shows that the quote is scripture based, (scripture can be foisted) and miserably fails to show why these verses when paraphrased and integrated into a small paragraph communicates "the true meaning of Charity". No dice Groogo, --- That dog won't hunt. You gotta do much better than kindergarten level proof and a string of assorted logical fallacies to make your case. Otherwise consider doing what some others around here have done and and just delcare that "God told me", which then exempts you from any rational explanation or burden of proof.

Groggy, you've demonstrated that already. No need for hypotheticals. Read my intital post in this thread. Was there something unclear? Typical TWI mentality. Grab some verses from the Bible, intelectualize them, then condense them into a super duper magical formula. -- Ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. The "opinion" that I clearly stated, does not require scripture to back it up any more than scripture back up is needed to tell someone that their car is has a flat tire. Why don't you back up your deception and hypocrisy with scripture? -- How do you and your "mentor" fit deception and hypocrisy into to your magical, super duper definition of charity?