Goey

Wyteduv, OLG is Mike's coined acronym for Older Leader Grad. EWB summarized it pretty well but here is a more detailed look at what Mike means by OLG. An OLG according to Mikean theology is someone who was in some kind of leadership position in TWI between 1982 and the time of VPW's death in 1985. From Mike: I hope that this explains (accurately) what Mike means by OLG. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

MJ, You are confused in your legal terminologies. Very confused. What you are calling "supreme court" is no more than civil divorce/custody proceedings.Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Posted by Mike: Why do I need to remember? This was my point - You should take your own advise here. Data - Data - Data. It is always more data - that never comes. What you call data - I call opinions and theories. Data is the facts and information that can used to form a theory or make a conclusion - not the theory or conclusion itself. Not much time at all Mike, it took me only about 15 minutes to read your post and reply. You say it is not all presented. So What? What you have presented so far is more than enough in itself to make some pretty fair assessments. I HAVE played with it and found it wanting. But for you to be speaking of "comprehensive" databases is rather absurd when you reject and refuse to even look at real data that is not hidden between the lines in the contra-context of one of VPW's books. The only data you are interested in it that which supports your cause. Who is really myopic?

MJ, Unfortunately, you are wrong and do not know what you are taking about here. Family courts are a part of the civil courts. The rules of Civil Procedure generally apply to divorce and child custody cases. Where are you getting your information from? "Everyone knows that"? - Hardly. I would not presume to understand what "everyone knows", but I have found my experiences in civil courts to be pretty fair. Civil courts *can* be "monkey courts" but I would guess that the far greater percentage of cases are handled pretty fairly. While the court system can always use some improvement it is too ba taht you have such a low opinion of our court system and project you opnion upon "everyone" else. I am just guessing here, but did you possibly lose a case in civil/family court and now blame the courts for it? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mikean Logic, Mike Posted: Here is a little breakdown of Mikean Logic. 1. We disoebyed VPW's "final instructions" to master PFAL - True 2. Bad things happened in TWI - also true. 3. Therefore - Not obeying VPW's "final instructions" caused bad things to happen in TWI. - True or False? Mike says true - but is it. ? While both 1 and 2 are true they do not necessarily lead to 3 being true. Here is an example to show the fallacy of this kind of thinking: 1. I ate a cheseburger today for lunch 2. I got a stomach ache and diarrea 4 hours later. 3. The cheseburger gave me food poisoning. While the cheseburger 'could' have caused a stomach ache and food poisoning, it could also have been the bacon and eggs that I ate for breakfast. Or is may not have been food poisioning at all. It could have been a virus I picked up three days ago and took 72 hours to show symptoms. Likewise with the cause of the fall of TWI - there are many possible and even more likely things that could have led to the fall of TWI. Most all of these Mike ignores or refuses to discuss. These are examples of bad logic - logical fallacies. Both my example and Mike's real argument examples of the logical fallacies know as the Fallacy of Exclusion and Affirming the Consequent - pretty much assuring a false or eroneous conclusion. Mike has previously stated as fact that disobeying Wirewille's "final instructions" was the cause of TWI's downfall - taking any responsibility away from VPW and putting it squarely upon the shoulders of others. He has openly stated that he is not interested in other evidence that may show otherwise. Now Mike states that he is "investigatiting" what happens when one obeys Wierwilles final instructions. Yet while he is in the process of "investigating" he is also calling on folks to obey Wierwille - claiming this is the only road to Chicago. Mike does not wait until his investigation shows substantial positive evidence to support his claims. He ignores the multitude other travelers that are actually heading to Chicago from many different directions and tells them they all are going the wrong way - while he is still just investigating. He is like the guy who finds a map to the Flying Dutcthman gold mine. He takes it to all the experts. The geology experts say that the geology of the mapped area is less than likely to have any gold - the formations are all wrong. The experienced miners who have been in the area and have struck out tell him there is no gold there. The geography experts look at the map and tell him that the map does not accurately represent the area. The map experts tell him that the map is a forgery - most likely produced by somone who was trying to make a buck. Yet the guy insists that the map is the real deal and tries to got others to invest in his plan. Why? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

MJ, I think you are being flippant and contentious just for the sake of it. Kit's warning is a good one. I recall when one poster jokingly mentioned urinating in the fountain at TWI's headquarters. TWI's attorneys used that post to show how they need to control access to their property. Others have posted things in anger and frustration only to see these things used against them, either in court or in a contfrontation by a spouse or by TWI leadership. Steve is right. In civil procedings the rules of evidence are different. In these cases the court uses what is called Preponderance of Evidence where the standards of proof are much lower. Hearsay is many times allowed. Preponderance of evidence is looking to see if something is more likey than not. That is enough for a judge to make as decision in many civil proceedings. This is the reason that O.J. lost in his civil trial - the rules of evidence were different than in his criminal trial. The fact then is that the posts in these forums can in indeed be used in court as evidence. All that has to be determmined is that it was more likely than not that someone posted it. YOU may not be "worried or frightened" - That is not the point. This isn't all about YOU - or about being "worried and frightened". It is about being wise and cautious, so that folks don't post things that might later on be used against them in some way. Maybe it is time for you to put you brain and heart in gear and try to see how others might be affected by what they post here. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on July 03, 2003 at 10:55.]

Ariel, I think that the Harry Potter books and movies are great. They are pure fantasy and entertainment - no more. I have a 5-year-old daughter who loves Harry Potter, we have seem both movies numerous times. Yet when asked, she will tell you right away - "It's not real Dad - that is only in the movies." But she will also tell you that God and Jesus are real. Like Thomas said, we raise train our children in the way they should go. If we do this then fictional and fantasy stuff like Harry Potter can be enjoyed as the entertaiment it is intended to be. Now, if you had read one of the books or seen a Harry Potter movie, then you would know that we are "muggles" (non-magical folks) and not capble of becoming wizzards or witches. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Seaspray, Ok, make that two people in the entire world that believe that mastering PFAL is the "single route." - Two people in all of humanity that believe that God has instututed a convenant whereby the only way for mankind to learn how to be 'in Christ' is through mastery of PFAL. Two people in the whole world that believe that God has so narrowed the path to truth that it can only be known through 'mastery' of selected writings of Wierwille. Seaspray, Is this a case of 'Mike said it, I believe it' - or have you come to your conclusions independant of Mike? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Of course it is not hard. I got this stuff long ago as did most others here. With this I agree. Not really. It hinges on whether or not "revelation" was given to Wierwille in the first place - beginning in 1942 and beyond. It hinges upon whether Wierwille had the authority to ask/demand the kind of obedience you are demanding - to master PFAL, and even beyond that, to obey hidden messages that Wierwille allegedly wrote and spoke (by revelation) that only you can see. It is not so cut and dry as: Obeying Wierwille is obeying God - Disobeying Wierewille is disobeying God. . You want to convict folks of disobeying God becasue they reject Wierwille's last call to master PFAL - but not just master PFAL, but master it as the Word of God. And not only that, your form of mastery would necessitate one seeing the same unbiquitously hidden messages and meanings that you see. The inferrence is clear; that if folks don't do what you do ("mastery" of PFAL) then they are disobeying God. And it looks like you are the only one in the entire world that is doing it. Mike, that should tell you something. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Posted by Mike: You have posted many times about obeying Wierwille. Here are just a few: "I'm sure that if we all had spiritually heard Dr's final instructions immediately after his death, and had REALLY obeyed them, then the ministry wouldn't have died.""The most often cited flimsy excuse for NOT literally obeying Dr's final mastery instructions is..." "But this was not the case. Dr's final instructions were not obeyed by leadership, and these final instructions were not properly presented to the rest of us." "...then I can only reasonably appeal to those OLGs to risk all and get their spiritual assurance from God to start obeying Dr and come back to this Word in PFAL addressed to us." Mike, obedience to Wierwille is a theme that runs throughout your posts. You equate obedience to Wierwille with obedience to God - as if it were the same thing. He was a man Mike - not God. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Obedience to whom? You and Wierwille when we are "told" to master PFAL? That is the bottom line, isn't it? Sorry Mike, I reject both you and Wierwille in your demands for obedience. Neither you nor Wierille have the authority or credibility to demand obedience to a lost/hidden message of spiritually dubious value. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Actually, I do not. I have written about this many times here at GS. It is on the record. But Wierwille did. That is why I said "by Wierwille' own definition." Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Actually, I must agree with that.Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Mike Posted: No Mike, P 82 - 83 would only then contradict YOUR your proprietary interpretation of the others. IMO the '42 promise was most likely fabricated by VPW and necessitates nothing more than it's own rejection as infalible fact. Then what are all of the other thousands of words your have posted here all about then - if not for evidence or proof? Your message of telling us to "master" PFAL is clear and simple enough - Master PFAL . What then all of the other thousands and thousands of your uer here for - fluff amd filler? Why does it take thousands and thousands of words just to tell someone to master PFAL? I did not say you handled them carefully Mike. On, the contrary, I strongly implied that your handling of the grammar was conjuring up and fabricatiing meanings that were not there. - Nice try. Why would Wierwille and his editors have to "work" reveleation from God to make it come out smoothly. If Wierwille and his editors worked it and chose the words, then it cannot be the Word of God - by Wierwille' own definition. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Your analysis presumes the wording on P83 to be gramatically perfect and absolutely literal. In other words you are approaching and analyzing these words in PFAL with the presumumption that they are the Word of God in order to show that they are the Word of God. The approach assumes the conculsion. A classic circular argument. 'Said' and 'write' are many times synonymous. It is a common usage. I could write that Jefferson said, "yada yada yada" in regards to one of his letters. Most anyone would understand that I was talking about something he wrote. How would Wierwille know what Calvin 'said' (out loud)? What we know of Calvin's theology is by what he wrote. Calvinsits adhere to what Calvin "wrote". Wierwille was just simply using a synonym to keep from being redundant or boring. He was not using 'said' to separate himself from the others. It is a perfectly common and acceptable usage to write, "the scriptures 'say' yada yada yada ", yet no one should interpret that any other way than "it is written". Mike, you are conjuring up and fabricating hidden meanings that simply aren't there. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Posted by Mike: Mike, Do you just make this stuff as you go along? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Yup, Guilty. Well, it all started on May 23rd. I redirected a post on this thread to a web page on my ATT site. Then a couple of hours later to one-up me (Show off!) - Steve edited one of his posts prior to mine to redirect all accesses to Disney.com I thought for sure that I had removed my original redirect so as to allow the thread to conninue normally. But something fishy is going on here or I am missing something. Bluz asked Steve to remove his redirect on May 24th at 8:39 am. Steve complied and Bluz thanked him on May 24th at 13:28 PM, implying that the redirect to Disney was removed and this thread was ok as of May 24th 13:28 pm. Which also implies that any redirects I had embedded were removed as well by that time on May 24th. So, in order for a redirect from one of my posts to reappear after that (as was indicated on June 5th by L.B.) I would have had to post or edit again on this thread *after* May 24th 13:28 pm when the thread was OK. Yet, according to the times and dates on the posts, I did not. My last post/edit prior to this one was on May 23rd. Yet I see where Pawtucket edited one of my posts on June 10th, which had last been edited by me on May 23rd. If this was the culprit post then it should have redirected this thread immidiatey after Steve removed his redirect to Disney. I am somewhat baffled. Yes, I put the very first redirect in here as a test, but I did not put in another redirect after Steve removed his on the 24th when all was well. Follow the trails and the times and dates and find the culptit. Is it possible that someone with moderator access was messing around also? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

No, Mike, they don't have to be "mean" especially in how they relate to and treat those they they have been entrusted to lead. Meanness implies cruelty, maliciousness and ill temperment. While a good general may want the enemy to percieve him as "mean", he cannot treat his own soldiers with the same 'meaness' and expect them to faithfully carry on the fight. Wars are not won by meanness, they are won by using superior strategies and tacticts. A good general leads by example. God exhorts Christians to be kind, gentle and loving, especially to one another. Wierwille was not exempted from these because of being some great spiritual general or because of the urgency of the battle. You are making excuses. Being a Christian may not always be a "sweet fellowship picnic", but we certainly should not expect or allow ourselves to be betrayed and abused by a so-called "general". Wierwille lost his commission (if he ever had one) when he began to use his rank for personal gain and personal pleasures, while betrying and abusing those who looked up to him for guidance and help. No Mike, God does not need mean, cruel or viscious people to do his bidding or to lead His people. Horsepucky! Mike, when you realize just exactly what Christ was sent to do for us, and that HE suceeded, then you will realize that God's Word was alive and well before Wierwille came along. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Get your Newspaper Grill Here Goey

BS Mike, He was talking about the Word revealed through the Bible when the keys taught in PFAL were applied. PFAL was written to show folks how to get to God's Word that was in the BIBLE. This is why he said that "The greatest secret in the wold today is that the Bible IS the revealed Word and will of God. PfAL was provided as the standard by which to approach the Bible/scriptures in order fror THEM to reveal the Word that they held. VPW believed (presumed? ) that if everyone applied the keys the same that they would all come to the same interpretation of the scriptures and thus be doctrinally like-minded. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Rottie, If given a cholce, I would never cook anything on a gas grill. I prefer to smoke or slow cook my meats which you just can't do well on a gas grill. About all I can say for gas grills it that they are convienent. If you like a quick fix without much hassle gas is ok - like maybe for burgers. But a cheap gas grill is less than worthless. Cooking on a gas grill is not even really barbequing. No one have ever won a barbeque cookoff using a gas grill. A good charcoal grill/smoker is much more versatile. You can fast cook or slow cook/smoke your foods on one and the food is much tastier. But don't use that self starting stuff - it burns up too fast and can impart a funny taste. I like Royal Oak the best. Also it is nice to have an accurate temperature gauge that goes from 100 - 500 degrees so than you control the temeperature when you slow cook. But, I cook a lot of stuff with wood only or just a few coals with seasoned wood to get a lot of smoke. On one end of mine is a firebox that for the wood that opens into the smoker/grill. You can also use charcoal in the cooking area for grilling. Best of both worlds. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Nice dodge. The details you offer are irrelevant unless PFAL is presumed to be the Word of God. This presumtion has been rejected by all but one. Folks have had more than enough information to determine that PFAL is flawed and that all of your so-called "data" that rests on the presumed flawlesness of PFAL is also flawed. You have not provided details or "data" enough to convince anyone that PFAL is God-breathed. How do you suppose that you will convince anyone one of anything else? Oh, I know. Duh! Silly me! - You are just holding forth the Word of God - God will give the increase, right? - Yea right. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, You posted: We know that Mike, and therein lies a very big problem. No one here, except for possibly Seaspray accepts this very first premise of yours. Everyone else here instead PRESUPPOSES that PFAL is only the work of a man - that it is flawed and in places quite inaccurate. Unless you can overcome this first hurdle, then you are spinning your wheels with the rest of the "data" that you have to offer since it depends upon your first presuposition - which has been weighed and rejected. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Calm down Rascal, The funny part it that Seapray was actually serious. ------------- Seaspray, I don't think PFAL was around when Hebrews was written. Do You? Your argument like many of Mike's is circular. It simply presumes PFAL to be the Word of God and then presumes that Hebrews would apply to it. A seriously flawed argument. I could make the same argument you made with any book or class about the Bible. I just have to presume it to be the Word of God and then quote Hebrews. What would make your argument or claim any more valid than mine? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, How many times did Wierwille plainly say that the Bible was the Word of God? - Thousands. How many times did Wierwille plainly say that PFAL was the Word of God? Or that PFAL superseded the Bible - Never. All you have is a feeble theory based upon inferrences from taken from bad logic that were gleaned from hidden messages that only you can see. Without your guidance and input, mastery of PFAL would most likely only lead folks to believe that the Bible was the revealed Word of God and that PFAL was simply a tool to help folk understand it. Question: Does mastery of PFAL include mastery of VPW's joke about the woman who married the four men? You know, "One for the money, two for the show..." Is this joke also the Word of God? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"