Goey

Nice Post Dot, Thanks for sharing that. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Rafael Asked, Actutally, I'd say no.Translation many times changes words and reorders them, yet if the idea, thought, concept or intended message is accuratey relayed then nothing is lost -it remains God's Word. Plagiarism does not just involve words, sentence scructure, phrases or paragraphs. It applies to ideas and concepts as well. Leonard Wrote: Wierwille said in SNS #214 Amazing. It seems that VPW not only plagiarized Leonard's class and books, but he also may have stolen (plagiarized) the account of God speaking to him in 1942. The similarities are undeniable.Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

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Psalmy, To make your image "spin"m or move around you need some software that allows you to do that - an animation program. I have used Easy Gif Animator with is free for the download on thw Internet. http://www.blumentals.net/download/ This is not automatic software, you will need to do some editing an stuff, but it works pretty good. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Hmmn? A man is siting at his desk, dilegenty working PFAL, looking for more hidden truths in his quest for mastery. Obedient to the last lost teaching of the Teache, r he finds a sentence that looks interesting and then..... a voice from seemingly nowhere: Mike!, Mike!, Shaken a bit, Mike begins to look around the dimly lit room - and there in the corner is the figure of a man, sitting in the easy chair. In his right hand is a small glass, half-full of liquer - Drambuie. Bwtween his fingers is a cigartette - a Kool. Mike, still somewhat dazed, then realizes who it is in the room, or at least who it appears to be. It is the teacher himself. Snapping to, Mike then says to himself; "This is the vision I have been waiting for this is...". But before he could finish his thought the teacher says, "Get up and come over here son." Mike gets up from his chair and approaches the Teacher. "What the hell are you doing son?", the Teacher asks in a somewhat irritated voice. "I am obeying your final teaching and mastering the new word that God gave you. I am looking for..." But before he can finish the Teacher says, "The hell with that crap son. You got it all wrong." "What?" says Mike, But you said that..." "Shut up and listen Mike. Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. PFAL was something I put together to present some keys so that people could start understanding the Bible - to get to the Word of God. PFAL was just..." "I won't listen to this" interrupts Mike. "You are wrong. I know that God gave you PFAL, and that it is the Word of..." "Shut up and listen Mike" Says the teacher, " The truth is that I copied a lot of PFAL from others and did not get them proper credit. And about that snowstorm in 1942, Well son..." Mike put his fingers in his ears and closes his eye tight and repeat to himself. "This is not real, this is not real", this is not real." After a few minutes he take his fingers out of this ears and slowly open his eyes. The Teacher is gone without a trace. Relieved, he thinks to himself, "This proves that I am right, that PFAL is indeed the true word oF God and that Satan will do anything to try and steal it from me and the rest of the world." Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, To hold You to intelectual honesty is equally ludicrous. He was referring to the Bible Mike. The PFAL book clearly names VPW's as the author. Then why did VPW call TWI a "Research and Teaching Ministry". Sounds kind of "academic" to me. Wrong! Dicsussing the subject of "orgination" of PFAL sheds light upon source of the work and the character of VPW. To deny it clouds the truth about how PFAL really came about and it's obviously uninspired nature. Mike, Take your stupid message and shove it up your... ( * )Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

I have not used QUickVerse, but I do use the Online Bible Freeware/Shareware software from time to time. Other than that, I mostly use the Blue Letter Bible or the Bible Gateway . Both have their advantages. For reading or studying the NT Greek text, I go to the Perseus Tufts site. There you can read the Greek text and every Greek word is linked to a morphological analysis, with Smyth's Greek Grammar only another click away. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext...%3A1999.01.0155 This site is an invaluable tool for those who want to do some work in the Greek text. Many of the Greek classics are there as well - like Josephus' Aniquities of The Jews in both Greek and English with the Greek crossreferenced and linked to morpholigical analysis, dictinary, concordance and lexicon. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on October 30, 2003 at 22:33.]

Me Too Rafael, By airing this letter, TWI has now made an official acknowledgement of Greasespot Cafe - and it ability to get information to both ex-way people and to innies. It seems to me that Harve and gang chose GS as the method to get TWI's spin on this situation to many of their own people - those who they can no longer contol and keep off of the Internet and GS. If the past is any indicator, it is certain that TWI dosen't care what the ex-way community or the general public thinks about them, since they have never responded to the many things discussed here, some of which are quite damning. So I gotta believe that Harve's letter to JP is more for the innies who venture onto the Internet than for the rest of us. It is more damage control than anything else. How many more followers can they afford to loose? JP's letter must have struck a real nerve, thus Harve's response - or more accurately, counter attack. In Harve's letter, he used the word "precedent" in regards to using Greasespot Cafe for this recent communication. Can we possibly assume that this letter to JP is only the first public communication and that there may be more to come? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Just testing to see if I can post unmoderated here yet.

Well it seems that Whitedove and maybe one or two others have come the the rescue of VPW and of the CF&S class to lend it some credibility. I give them the golden raspbery award for effort. I first made the statement that VPW referred to a woman's vigina as ugly. But this was not a verbatim quote. What I actually recall being said was that "there is nothing pretty about it" or something along these lines, thence my use of the word "ugly". I will stand corrected if someone has the actual class tapes and tells me it is not in there. An instructor's guide is a poor source of reference because it does not contain everything said in the class. Furthermore, I question the objectivity of the instructor. It is easy to be unobjective about something that one believes in or spent many years teaching and promoting. It is also somewhat inappropriate to charge folks with being dishonest or speaking from anger when they post their recollections of what was said in this or any TWI class. Not all negative ideas concerning VPW or his teachings stem from anger, venting and dishonesty. Some come from years of study, soul-searching and just plain common-sense. Wierwille was a sex pervert. He abused and molested women. He was abusive and ugly to his wife. I think it is quite reasonable to interpret the CF& S class in light of these things. It has nothing to do with dishonesty or anger. Considering VPW's character, I also think it quite reasonable to question his motives in his teachings in this class. Why was fornication glossed over? Where did inspiration for the masterbation/original sin teaching come from? Why little or nothing on fidelity? Adultery? I believe its is less than objective to post and comment on only the good parts about this class and not to consider it as a whole. IMO, the CF& S class is a case of a little leaven leavens the whole lump ( Galations 5:9). There is enough "bad" in this class to invalidate it as a whole. I cannot imagine anyone basing their marriage, sex life, and family life upon the content of the CF& S class and using it as an authoritive guide. I highly suspect that it did more harm than good. But this might be a hard pill to swallow for someone who was an instructor of this class for years, thinking it to be a good thing. I understand that. On another note, VPW revealed his ignorance on sex in this class by some of the things that were taught. It seems pretty clear to me that what he taught as facts were sometimes his opinions or maybe based upon his own personal experiences/preferences. For example, he said to the ladies that if you rub the rim of the penis just so that a man will ejaculate almost immediately. Is this a fact? I don't think so. What man then was VPW referring to? Is it true that "the way to a man's heart is through his penis"? Does this or should this apply to all Christian men or just the elite Men of God of the Way? Should a Christian wife really be a whore in the bedroom? Or expected to be one by her husband? Victor Paul Wierwille was the antithesis of an expert on "Christian Family and Sex and had absolultely no business teaching a class of this nature, yet he did so anyway. Why ? Maybe some of y'all can look back and see this class as good by picking out the good parts and ignoring the obvious. I instead see a class put together by a depraved man - a pervert and a charlatan, for the main purpose of promoting a culture/sub-culture within his "ministry" where his own perversions were allowed and even condoned - where he could get his "needs" met on a continual basis. A ministry where the women were whores in the bedroom and cooks in the kitchen and gave their husbands (and their ordained male leaders) sexual pleasure (usually unknown to the husbands) to take care of their "needs." Of course the CF&S class had some good stuff thrown into to it - to lend it some credibility. VPW was not stupid. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Wordwolf, I was serious. ------------------------------- ((((excathedra)))) miss you too. Goey,

CF&S was a sneaky little class where VPW slyly taught his personal preferences and perversions for sex as if they were the defacto standard. VPW taught that a man's penis was beautiful and magnificant while a woman's vagina was ugly. I'll bet old Vee Pee never knew how to sexuall satisfy a woman, or never really cared to know. He was into getting his own satisifaction - taking care of the Man of God. He taught in this class that" the way to a man's heart was through his penis", opening the door for premarital and promiscous sex and to women trying to get a man's heart by taking care of that magnificant and beautiful penis. Well, we know what got to old Vee Pee's heart now don't we? Don't recall if he taught how to get to a woman's heart - but it certainly was not through her vagina because that thing is ugly. Best not look at it. It was also a class that subtly made men superior to women in most every way. This class was about VPW's disdain for women, relegating them to sexual and domestic servants of men. I never took this class seriously. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

I voted for all of the above. As intended purposes - they are all good But the bottom line is that people will use GS for their own purposes - intended or not. It can be a place to provide information for closure or a forum to meet with friends, both old and new. It can be all the things in the list It can also be a place that stirs up old emotions long forgotten, or a place that fosters anger, resentment and discord. It can be an avenue to seek and get attention, recognition and sympthy or a place to hide out while avoiding the world and it's harsh realities. It can be a place to exchange ideas for the better good, or a place to promote one' own's own ideas as the only possible and valid truth. A place to make an enemy or to meet a lover. It all depends upon each person's own agenda and approach - no matter the intended purposes. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on September 10, 2003 at 12:31.]

Rafael, Wierwille's distinction between eternal and everlasting is interesting. Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. --- Greek - ainion zoen = 'eternal life' Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Greek - ainion zoen = 'everlasting life'. It is the same phrase, 'ainion zeon' used in both verses. God is referred to as 'everlasting' in Romans 16:26: (King James Version) Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: --- Greek - aioniou Theou = everlasting God. It beats the heck out of me why Wierwille attempts to makes a distinction between everlasting and eternal, placing God as eternal and our salvation as everlasting. Eternal - American Heritage DIctionary 1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite. 2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual. 3. Forever true or changeless: eternal truths. 4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless. See Synonyms at continual. 5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife. Everlasting - American Heritage Dictionary adj. 1. Lasting forever; eternal. 2. Continuing indefinitely or for a long period of time. 3. Persisting too long; tedious: everlasting complaints. n. 1. Everlasting God. Used with the. 2. Eternal duration; eternity. 3. Any of various plants, such as the strawflower or one of the genera Anaphalis or Gnaphalium, that retain form and color long after they are dry. It seems that eternal and everlasting are synonymous. In any case the same base word - ainios used to desicribe both God and our salvation. The NIV, NASB, NLT, and ASV all use 'eternal' instead of 'everlasting' in Romans 16:26. They all also use 'eternal' in both John 3:15 and 16. Wierwille is splittiing hairs. I see no good reason to make a distinction, the Greek does not. God will continue forever as will our salvation. They are both eternal and everlasting in the sense of continuity. Wierwille says that God is eternal in the sense of having no beginning and no end which is true. But he says that our eternal life has a begining. Maybe, if you reckon it at the time of being born again. In other words, one moment condemned, the next saved for eternity. One could argue though, that our salvation (eternal life) also had no beginning since it was in God's foreknowledge. Was there ever a time when God did not foreknow our salvation? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Some Thoughts: Mike: "How do you think Dr would feel if he found out that his final instructions were lost?" Answer: He would not give a damn, knowing that God is greater than any "final instructions" he could possibly have given - and that God would not allow the spiritual well being of all of humanity rest upon an obscure teaching of one man. He would be bewildered as to how a few folks could have taken his teachings and exalted them to the Word of God. Mike: "How do you think he?d feel to learn that in the year 1998, tens of thousands (I?ve polled hundreds) of grads, Corps, and clergy would not be even aware of the existence of these final instructions, let alone ever inclined to obey them?" Answer: He would be relieved that no more than a just a few people misconstrued and mistrpresented his final teaching to mean what you say it means. Mike: "When Dr?s up, I?ll be there with a clean conscience to greet him." Answer: And then old Doc Vic himself can explain to you how far off track you got in regards to his so-called "final instructions". But then you would probably argue with VPW himself him about what he really meant in his "final instructions." Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike replied to Dizzydog: Mike, Maybe you should look at page 63 of PFAL, It reads: Part II The Bible is the Word of God Also look at the top of each even numbered page from p 66 to page 142. It says. "The Bible is the Word of God" ( no revealed) Wierwille interchangeably uses the words and terms; Bible, Word, Word of God, and scripture in numerous places. However he does qualify what he means by Word of God early in Part III. Neither before nor after that qualification does Wierwille find it necessarry to put "revealed" in front of Word of God each time he uses the term in regards to the Bible. Mike, everytime you read; "Word of God", "Word", or "Scripture" on a page of PFAL, from page 66 through page 142, open your PFAL book flat and look at the top of the even numbered page and see the context. This is VPW's primary purpose for the entire Part II. - to show that the Bible is the Word of God. Aren't you being a bit anal when you require the word "revealed". Wierwille/PFAL did not think it was necessary. Are you sure that it is mastery of PFAL that you are after? Doesn't seem like it to me. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Tom, Try alternating playing from left and the right witihin each game. But if the far right stack has less than 4 down cards and there is at least one black and one red king aleady moved to and open column, then play exclusively from the left, but only if you have not burried both red 10's and both black 4's in the discard pile. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Wordwolf, I forgot that you had posted all that. And since it was on another page, I did not go back to look. - I seldom do. Had I recalled that all that was there, I certainly would have gone back and used it. Now, I have it copied to file for future reference. Thanks. You posted: But, I (mildy) object to your obejction. See, I did not say that I "only" had Rafael's post to draw from. I just simply said that I would use Rafael's quotes for lack of a PFAL book. But also know that I do appreciate all the fine work you do here. Know where I can get a PFAL book for cheap? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike Posted Ok Mike, so if I copied PFAL and the other collaterals word for word and put it all together in a combined volume and then put my name on it as the author - you would not have a problem with that? I could of course claim that I got it by revelation while holed-up in a hotel room right after a snowstorm in September that no one else saw. I might even one day get a few folks to believe me and start a religion. Maybe I could have my own "Mike" to defend me against the naysayers. ----------------------------------- Now, about the so-called "law" of believeing: In regards to "saint and sinner"; One could possibly argue that VPW was using the term 'saint' in it's more sacred meaning and sinner referring to the rest of the believers, but that would not be consistent with Wierwille's theology. VPW clearly taught that the believers were the saints. And the Bible is pretty plain that all have sinned and are therefore sinners. In the OT the distinction between saint an sinner was pretty clear. Saints observed the law as best they could and 'sinners' did not. In the NT the Law being filfilled, the saints became those that believe in Christ and the sinners- those that did not. So then technically we have saints that are sinners( all have sinned) and then we have just plain old sinners. One can therefore only conclude that in VPW's statement that 'saint' refers to believers and 'sinner' refers to unbelievers - otherwise there would be no distinction between the two. What advantage then does the saint (Christian) have over the sinner (unbeliever) when it comes to faith (believing)? Not much according to Wierwille's formula-based law of believing that works for "saint and sinner alike" Just follow the formula and voila! Since I no longer own a PFAL book (I wish I did) I will use the quotes from Rafael's post as to what VPW said about this so called law. * "All believing equals receiving." (All without distinction?) 'All' must refer to both positive and negative believing. Equality implies that where there is one there will also be the other. In other words - it is immutable. I think that VPW was using this in the PFAL class as a set-up for speaking in tongues. To try and make sure that no one missed. * "What you believe for or expect, you get." Only according to "what is available" which VPW got wrong quite a bit. It was many times VPW errors here and his failure to corrrect them that led to what you call TVT's. * "Fear is believing in reverse" I will quote Rafael here: "No it isn't." VPW was attempting on again to redefine the English language to suit his formula. Fear is a feeling of of anxiety brought on by either the real or perceived presence of danger. While fear is many times baseless and debilitating, at other times it is a good thing and can save your life. The Bible speaks of no such thing as reverse believing (faith). One either believes something or not whether is it a promise of God or something totally absurd like red drapes or a parking spot at the mall or for little Johnny to get run over by a Mack truck. God honors His promisses. God has not prommised to give us illness and death if we believe for it. This is not from God or from a spiritual law. Here is another thing to think on. Wierwille postulated in his formula that needs and wants should be parallel in order to receive from God. If we have a sipritual law that works in reverse, then the needs and wants part should also apply on the reverse side. So then if I believe for a truck to kill my kid then I should also need it and want it before I can receive it. And God also must be willing and able to bring it to pass. Another quite serious flaw in Werwille's "law of believing". Wierwille puts qualifiers on the positive side and not on the "reverse". * "Fear is negative believing." See Above * "God would have to change the laws of the universe not to accomodate you." If I recall, this was in the part PFAL where VPW told of someone who predicted the time of their own death. This implies a universal law that would apply to all people. VPW makes it very impersonal, as if there were spiritual lines of flux permeating the universe that can 'sense' whether one is 'believing' or 'fearing' and then somehow bring about the results and consequences. Like like "The Force" from Star Wars. Let me tell you, I was really fearful of dying when I had my last heart attack and resultant surgeries. I even prepared for death. But by God's grace, here I am. So much for VPW's formula. It Looks good on paper but it simply does not work out like VPW taught it. An immutable and universal "law of believing" that works in reverse would preclude God's grace and mercy. Therefore, according to Wierwille, God would have to "change the laws of the universe" when he gives His grace and mercy. But also according to Wierwille God cannot break his own laws. Go figure. My conculsion: There is no "law of believing" anything like what Wierwille taught Attempting reduce God's Word into simple 5 step formulas will usually result in error Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Now Mike, I have been rather busy lately and I jsut can't get to all the questions as soon as I would like to. I have to establish mu proirities amd manange my time in these kind of matters. But rest assured that I have not forgotten you. I gave you a hint earlier but you must have missed it. Maybe if you go back and read between the lines in the contra-context of what I have posted then you will be more in tune with what I am really saying here. Till then I guess you will just have to wait until I have the time to answer your question. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

By Mike: Or it may be that VPW was wrong and that the so-called law of believing as taught by Wierwille was erroneous. Oh, but it could not possibly be that the great VPW was wrong here, could it? You are grapsing at straws here in an attempt to keep VPW's words infallible and keep yourself "right" about everything. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike Posted: I think you are dead wrong Mike. He most certainly did. For an example, VPW taught that there were a group of men who got together and "believed" for another man to die - someone that they did not like. VPW claimed that their believing killed this man. Are you gonna tell us now - that these men were believing a promise of God? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

George Wrote: Actually George, it is probably worse for someone who has no real interest in the debate to attempt to show both sides in a bad light. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, I read it once about 25 years ago. I could not quote you one single sentence from it. Mike, Just becasue Wierwille said something does not make it true. - Interesting maybe but I would not consider what Wierwille said on these tapes to be anymore than his opinion. So then is this a yes in regards to my question? - that you do in fact believe that there was a new administration technically beginning in 1942? Does this according to your present state of learning also mean that the grace administration has been fulfilled or come to a close? -or just added to.What then shall we call this new administration? Have you named it yet? What is different in this new administration from the grace administration. What has been ommited and what has been added - can you be specific? Mike, is it an true administration change or not? Is it just "like" one or is it really a change. You are being vague here. Please be specific. Mike, for the sake of clarity, let's not redefine the term 'administration'. Let's stick to the commonly understood meaning like what VPW taught on administrations. I think it may have slipped by us becasue there really was no fomal announcement - at least not a clear or plain one. Please quote the part of LV where there was a formal announcement of an administration change - I'd like to see it. BTW, You did not answer this; Do you believe that you were called by God to reveal and usher in this new administration? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, Interesting statement Mike. If according to what you have previously posted - that there was actually a new covenant techically beginning in 1942 (that was never fully revealed), then your statement above would seem to suggest that there is yet another plan being revealed now. Since VPW never openly declared or revealed a new covenant as a result he 1942 promise, we would then have to assume that though technically in force, it was to be revealed at a later date. So then we might also surmise that the practical beginning of tis new covenant/administration would be when it was plainly revealed. The implication of all this is that the 1942 Covenant, although technicaly in force, was concealed and held in abeyance for 60 years, but is now being made manifest, and that you are the person selected to usher in this new administration. How am I doing here? Mike, have you been called of God to usher in this new administration and to reveal this new plan? Is that why you are here? What administration do you believe that we are currently in? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"