Goey

Where have I suggested or even implied that open discussion should be discouraged? When have I discouraged it? - Not once. This is a strawman. A baseles accusation. Just exactly who am I "brown-nosing"? The only status "status-quo" here is the one you invented in your mind -- Or the one you are attempting to foist upon us. There are many different takes on TWI/VPW/PFAL here. And honestly WTH, I am not too concerned about my "credibility". Did I ever say plagiarism? No. - I said you presented his words as if they were yours. This is not plaigerism, it is as someone else already noted -- intellectual dishonesty. I'd like to see the logic you used to come up with this nonsense. The valdity of your contribution rests upon it's content, not upon whether I checked it our or not. My checking it out "proves" nothing at all. I checked it out because it seemed canned and like some canned psycobabble that I once read a long time ago. ROTFLMAO!!! -- Another disingenuous diversion. -- What does it matter how many people look up what I say? And how would you or I know anyway? Very presumptious, I'd say. Brilliant logic too. Is everyone who challneges or disagrees with you "jealous". How childish.. Not surprising at at all considering your defensive postion of VPW and your own intellectual dishonesty. This is irrelevant. You should look up the definition of plagiarism rather than try to redefine it for VPW and his "legacy." Goey Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on February 13, 2004 at 21:43.]

The ribs and brisket are in the smoker ....

What The Hay Yes you did - when you failed to give Hoffer credit when you copied him word for word. What the hell do you know about me or any "resentment" I may or may not have? What facts? What you presented were not "facts". They were your personal interpretations and speculations. You sound just like Mike, calling speculation "facts" just like he calls his personal opinions "data". Futhermore, I have over 1300 posts on this board - when have I ever stated or even implied that Wierwille treated me unjustly? I haven't. Your armchair psycoanalysis fails miserably. Whether Hoffer got it right or not is highly debatable. That's not the point though. I was saying that YOU got Hoffer backwards - at least partially. Wierwille was not the "strong" and his followers or those he abused the "weak". Maybe if you actually studied Hoffer instead of just quoting him because it seems to make your case, that you might understand this a little better. Furthermore, I think it is pretty damned arrogant of you to presume to think that I and others here are "demonizing" Wierwille because we are the "weak" and therefore full of hatred, malice, and other such gobledegook nonsense. One does not have to be weak and full of hate to call a spade a spade. I also find it very arrogant if not narcissistic that you put yourself in to the role of the "strong" (like Hoffer does) and project those of us who see Wierwille as the abuser and charletan that he was -- as the "weak". You are WAAAAAAAAY out there dude. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on February 12, 2004 at 2:54.]

From PFAL Here, Wierwille clearly says it was just an "estimate". But who knows what it was actually based upon? In any case, I would not take these percentages as being exact. Wirewille did not present them as being exact. Roy, I don't know where you got he idea that the percentage was presented as absolute fact. I suspect though that it is more about how you see things in either black or white than what was actually taught in PFAL/TWI in this particulat instance. You may want to consider reading what was actually writen in PFAL, before you call something a "lie". This is not one of them. Goey

Wordwolf, I did that for brevity. It was intentional. Basides, I don't think it matters too much anyway. The statement seems erroneous whether it is in or out of context. ---------------------------------------- Yea Mike, I know .... Don't tell me If VPW said it was 464 then the scholars must be in error of their dating if these "older" manuscripts. Or --- these tattered remnants that predate 464 can't properly be called manuscripts at all anyway. (I know your game) Goey [This message was edited by Goey on February 11, 2004 at 1:58.]

Roy, It was a figure of speech and not to be taken as mathematically exact. It's like saying, "I'm 98 percent positive" or "behind you 110 percent" VPW used "98 percent" to simply convey the idea that the vast majority of scripture interpreted itself "in the verse". Goey

A possible error in PFAL ? From PFAL I understand that Dead Sea Scrolls contain manuscripts of the entire Old Testament (except for the book of Esther) which date from 200BCE to 100CE -- far earlier than what VPW says in PFAL. Wierwille *could* have been referring to New Testament manuscripts, but if so he did not state it as such. Does anyone else see this as a possible error? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Roy, We won't get to judge him. So I guess this is just another one of those "just for fun" things that you like to do. So, "just for fun" in the ridiculously absurd event that I were given the task of judging VPW,(or anyone else for that matter), I would simply ask God what the judgment should be -- and then go with that. If God gives a thumbs up, then that's what it will be. If He give a thumbs down, then I'll go with that. And If God says, "Get a dull rusty knife." .... Well I probably won't have to look to hard to find one. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Shaz, Yea, that "glorious prose" used by WTH was knocked off from Hoffer - nothing original at all. Here is the entire quote: Taken out of context, it can be used in reverse like WTH did. Here is another "Hofferism" I would think that this would apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM than to their former folowers or to those whom they opressed or harmed. According to Hoffer VPW and LCM and those like them would be weak ones. WTH got it backwards ... Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Posted by "What The Hay": This looks like a bunch of psyco-babble to me. But also take note that these are not the words of "What the Hay", they are the words of Eric Hoffer and note the they were not properly quoted. Go figure... More of the same -- Hoffer's words slightly rearranged. Kinda like something VPW would have done ... Oh, what insight! Makes me wanna barf! Not only do you "borrow" from Hoffer without due credit, you also take him out of context and get confused as to who the "weak" actually are. Baaah! Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened" [This message was edited by Goey on February 08, 2004 at 3:13.]

Posted by Mike: Who here has ever said they expected a "perfect teacher"? No one here Mike. So it seems you grieve for no one as you once again attmept to paint a false picture. But hey, that's just your nature isn't it? There is no need for a perfect teacher, only for one that meets the bare minimum of standards set fort in the scriptures. Wierwille didn't meet them. Not even close. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike, I guess you saw him hide it - eh? - -->That's real good thinking there Mike. I guess anything that is obsure or "lost" must have been hidden by the devil - eh? Now I wonder what ever happend to VPW's "first" teaching? - If the "last" one is so important then the "first" one ought to be paramount! I wonder where the adversary hid that one? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Oak, Oldies did not use quote marks so he is technically ok. But it is still a misreprestation of my words. Don't be too concerned, I am kind of used to it from him. You say "much", he hears "most". You say "some" he hears "all". Go figure.. Oldies, what's up with that ? No, it would not. That is very poor reasoning and I am sure you don't believe it anyway, so it ammounts to no more that rhetoric. But, if for example VPW was in error on "Four Crucified" then Bullinger would be too since he got that from Bullinger. However, this does not make Bullinger himself "eroneous" as you suggested nor does it make him self-serving. It just makes him wrong. But take VPW's teaching on tithing. He stress grace and fulfilling of the Law in almost all he taughts - except in those areas where he benefited - like tithing. VPW argued that "if they could give XX percent under the Law, then how much more shall we give under Grace?". What a crock! Why didn't he use this same kind of argument concerning blood sacrifice or any other parts of the Law? Because it did not line the pockets of the ministry and did not warm his bed -- that's why. And "if" VPW stole this teaching from someone else then I would lay odds that they were self-serving also - Or just blind followers parroting what they were taught. Oldies, you can twist and turn and misrepreset what folks say all you want, but it changes nothing - nothing at all. What the Hay, Kinda got to chuckle at that... sorry. First, Wierwille did not not even come to a historical contribution concerning the Bible (scripture PFAL, p128} being the "Word of God". Not even close. However, he may have personally coined the little cliche "The Word of God is the will of God". But is it really? Many little catch phrases and cliches like this sound real good have an element of truth, but are many times overly simplistic - which certainly is the case with this one. The will of God goes far beyond what is written in scripture -- especially to the individual seeking specific direction. VPW's take on scripture, among other things, led a lot of folks to exalt the ink on the paper far beyond what God intended (Bible Worship?) and to ignore or gloss over the guidance and teaching to be had from the Holy Spirit and from a relationship with the living Word of God, which is Jesus Christ. Certainly the Bible can be an aid in seeking and understanding God's will. But to say that God's Word (scripture) "IS" the will of God - is pretty eroneous if you really think about it. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Zix, Good point, and one that Mike will most likely dodge or ignore. Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds and was established by God as an apostle. In contrast, VPW used his self-appointed position in an obscucre little cult to abuse and defraud his followers in the name of God. The VPW defenders seem to always bring up Paul's evil deeds *before* his conversion to somehow justify VPW's evil deeds *after* his conversion and while he was supposedly an apostle or a MOG. It's the same lame old "all men are sinners" ploy to prove VPW's status as MOGFOT and his works worthy of honor. Who are they trying to persuade? Themselves I think. They just can't stomach the idea that VPW was a fraud and a charletan and no real MOG at all, and that much of what he taught was eroneous and self-serving - because then they might have to take an honest look at all they believe to be true, and God forbid, change their thinking on a few things. Couldn't have that now could we? It is much easier to lie to one's self (and to others) and hold on to the error than to entertain the idea that much of what they beleive is dead wrong and pure BS. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Kill for TWI ? Not me, but I knew a few folk that I think might would have, if told to by either VPW or LCM. The WOW coordinator I had back in 79 once told me that if VPW told her to kill someone or to jump off of a bridge, that she would do it without question. I think she was trying to impress me with her level of "commitment". Here is an interesting quote: Good things there are civil laws - eh ? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Posted by JustThinking: However this does not apply to fraud, or racketeering, where he corporate officers are personaly indeed liable, both civily and criminally. There is lots of stuff that corporated officers can get nailed on .... Read the Actual Statutes here .... http://www.michie.com/ Select Tennessee and then go to title 48 ... Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

I would think that the "members" consist not only of the BOT but the cabinet members as well. Anyone know who they are and how many ? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Yea, It takes money to run an event like an Advanced Class ... so what ? I was once in charge of negotiating with a large Hoilday Inn on a three day conference for over 600 people. The only money requred up front was a small deposit on the conference rooms. I negotaited a reduced price on meals and rooms and I arranged a deal where we spit the revenue from coffee sales 50/50, which generated over $2,500 dollars to futher offset expenses. There were also kick backs from the Hotel on rooms and they also provided several free suites for use by conference officials ... The total up front cost to put it on was almost nothing except a little time and effort. A $15.00 registration fee more than covered the cost of the conference rooms and paying for the guest speakers.. Each person paid for their own room and could double up if they wanted to ... TWI collects tons of ABS over the course of the year from the very same people that are expected to take their stupid classes ... If those cornfield con artists would use the ABS like a real non-proft religious organization and give some of it back to their contributors, rather than using it for manicuring lawns, trips to the Bahamas, and paying servants to cater to their every whim, then they wouldn't "need" to charge $185 for a stupid freaking class of questinable and dubious value. I have no doubt that TWI uses these Advanced Clases as a means to generate income/profit. Their actual cost to put it on is almost nothing.... Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Mike posted: So then not to master PFAL = Not to love God ? Pure Horsepuckey ! Goey

Al, You forgot to factor in the cost of maintaining the comfortable lifestyles of the BOT and the salaries of their servants. And also the cost of manicuring the grounds at HQ and other such things -- All necessary in order for TWI to distribute the materials needed to put on a PFAL class. If you factor in these necessary expenses in then it becomes clear that the cost of putting on a PFAL class rises to way over $100.00 per person, probably closer to $500.000 to $1000.000. So in reality TWI was making a huge sacrifce and literally giving away "The Class" at $100.00 per person. Such love and charity ... It kind of makes me well up inside just to think about it. Sorry, I'm getting all teary now -- I need a tissue. Goey

Thanks Everyone, Tomorrow is the big 50! But I feel like I am 25 thanks to a very special person in my life. Hey Cowgirl, what a lovely cabin! -- It looks kinda familiar ... like I may have been there before. (RK!) Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Nice Posts Early2it. Did you check your private topics for some possible solutions to your posting problem? Goey

Jbarrax wrote: I'll play devil's advocate here a bit. SInce the scriptures do not detail the mechanics of S.I.T. Then how do you know that what you are doing is the real deal? If God gives the utterance then how can you decide what sound the utterance is going to begin with by going through the alphabet ? Isn't it God's job to determine the sounds? I do not see anywhere in the scriptures where it can be inferred or implied that the speaker chooses the first sound in a tongue "word" and that God supplies the rest of the word. What if that partiucular language does not have that sound ? Neither do I see at all where the "idea is for us to speak and God to supply the words ...." where one beforehand mentally determins what the word is going to sound like. If God is supplying the words then I would think that He would supply the entire word inculding the first syllable. When you predmeditate beforehand with your mind what the first syllable of the word is going to be, then you are at best limiting God to supplying only a word that begins with that particular sound. At worst it is not the manfestation of tongues at all. Now, what if the word God want to give goes not begin with that sound? By doing this questionable practice, you are in effect telling God that the only word you will allow Him to give is one that begins with that sound.... Does God then honor your limmitation of Him .... I kind of doubt it. Language is more than just individual words. A single word is pretty much meaningless. It takes a sentence or a phrase to form aniIdea or a precept that can be communicated. So if you premeditate the beginning sound of each word in a sentence, then you are limiting God to supplying a sentenece that can have only words that begin with certain sounds, and in effect limiting what what the idea or thought is that is being communicated. Ok, now let's presume that what you are saying is true, that we we can decide beforehand what sound the word is going to start with. -- What then prevents us from also deciding what the ending of the word also sounds like -- and just let God supply the middle syllables? Or better yet, why not let God supply be beginning sound of each word and you supply the rest -- ever try that? Jerry, you usually think things through pretty well, but on this one I don't believe that you have thought it through very well at all. Your reasoning seems pretty shaky to me. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

When my daughter had just turned 5 years old, we were driving in the car one afternoon. As we passed by a house, there in the front yard were two dogs getting after it. My daughter watched them intently for a while and then turned to me and asked, "Daddy, what were those two dogs doing?" I was kind of shocked at first and at loss for words, but then I remembered what my dad told me when I had the same question. I told her, "Well honey see that dog in the front?... It is very sick. And the one in the back is pushing it to the hospital." Goey Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Where is Wierwille ? -- Who knows? I an not even sure what I truly believe concerning whether folks die and go to straight to heaven or somewhere else, or whether they go to "gravedom" and await the return or another ressurection. It's not really that inmportant to me. But in regards to VPW, isn't it the ultimate form of judgement -- for human beings to determine someones fate after death? Isn't that God's job ? (Speaking only from a Christian prospective) I just trust that God will be ultimately fair.... whatever He does with Herr Docktor. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"