Goey

LLP, That was Smith Barney - not E.F. Hutton. LLP, I happen to agree with some of what you say about Gibson's profit motive for Passion. However I do also think that Gibson's passion for this movie was at least paritally based in his faith. One does not necessarily preclude the other. Live isn't all black and white. You are fairly bright person, but you sure have a pompous way of expressing yourself which I think may be partly why some folks jump on your posts so much. BTW, I did a post in the Open Forum on how to use GS's quote feature. You may consider looking at that. Goey

Very well put !

There's also a little folder with a quotation mark in the bottom right hand corner of the page - if you go to the post you want to quote and click on it, it will automatically put the post in the quote form for you, and put that "originally posted by_____ in there, too. why thank you HopeR! I didn't know it put the "originally posted by" stuff in there! that's neat! Hey, this is fun !

Some y'all are having trouble with quotes so I thought I would post this to show how it is done. It is really quite easy. Here's how. That's is all there is to it.

Hope, I ain't gonna beat you up. But it seems to me that you are looking at the letter from a mostly business viewpoint and not from a spiritual/blblical one (you said as much) Both are valid views, but in a different way. If TWI had promoted itself as a "business" then I could accept your point of view. However it did not. It represeted itself as God's ministry. You said "the letter served it's purpose", and then spoke of all the money it saved TWI - the "business". Was that the purpose of the letter in your opinion - to save TWI money as a business? If that is the case, then wouldn't that make all the spiritual/biblical dialog in the letter(s) just rhetoric and a smoke screen for it's real purpose - money in TWI's coffers? My question then to you is this -- In your opinion did the letter(s) serve any Godly purpose? In other words was it "right on with with the Word" to use TWI's old vernacular.

Oldies, It seems to me that you are ignoring the fact that there was more than just the one "loyalty letter". So far you have not seemed to even have acknowledged that there was more than one letter. Rascal and other have told you that on numerous occasions. Do you think they are lying or making this stuff up? -- I don't. My "interpretation" of these letters as a "demand" for loyalty, is not based soley upon the one letter that can be seen HERE-- But is also based upon the testimony of others like Rascal who received a letter that required an oath of loyalty. It also considers the fact that those who did not demonstrate their loyalty to Craig by oath were dismissed. How can you simply ignore these things? Wouldn't you think that you should consider all of the evidence on this loyalty stuff, instead of just taking that one letter at face value and ignoring what others are telling you really happened and the context in which it happened?

Oldies, Were you by chance very supportive of Craig about the time of the loyaly letters? Say '89 or so? Just curious ...I am wondering if it is possible that your defense of Craig's demand for loyaly is based upon a decision that you made at the time - a decision that maybe you don't want to consider now as possibly not so good. If I had thought that Craig was the true Mogfodat at the time, and that TWI was truly God's ministry then I would have taken the oath - no problem. Oldies, what did you think at that time? Did you beleive that Craig was "The Man of God" and deserving of loyalty -- Many folks did. But looking back in hindsight what do you believe now? Was he really? It seems that many folks exited TWI about the time of the loyalty letters, refusing to take the oath for various reasons. It also stands to reason that quite a few did decide to give give their loyalty to Craig at this time (for whatever reasons). Those who did not receive letters directly must surely have been affected also, and still had to make a decision. I know that if I had been leadership and had taken a oath to Craig, (willingly or not) that I probably would have demanded or expected the same from those under me.

Oldies, My brother called me when he got his "loyalty letter" and read it to me. My first thought was what a bunch of B.S. LCM was asking folks not for loyalty to God or to the Word, but rather to him personally. Anyone that replied that they would be loyal to Craig as long as he stood on the Word was summarily dismissed. Which is what what happened to my brother. He was told he could no longer run classes or lead a Twig and was was told to return all TWI material to HQ. My brother was neither on Staff nor was he Corps, yet he got the letter. Yes, Craig's letter drew a line - between loyalty to one screwed up ministy (his) and another screwed up ministry (Geer's). I see nothing good about the letter. The letter, as I read it, was the antethesis of 1 Cor 3 as he demmanded people to make a carnal choice between what *man* to follow. Even if paid Staff and Clergy were donating to Geer, it was none of Craig's business where a person decides to give money that they have earned. It is their money to give as they see fit. An employer has no right to tell an employee were to spend their income. Oops, sorry, I said I would bug out didn't I? Goey

I bailed in 82/83 ... Made a fairly quiet exit. One of the main reasons I left then was because it was getting too legalistic and controling for me -- and that was in 82. I only saw it getting worse and not better. I never liked Craig, so when he got the mantle (skunk pelt) I said adios. I stayed in fairly close contact with my brothers who remained in until Craig's "loyalty letter" whenever that was. So I saw a bit of what was going on up until then. But, as far as actual personal experience in TWI after Craig took over, I have none at all. The worse things that happend to me while I as in TWI(1) was married Clergy trying to get in my then fiancee's pants (78) and getting raked over the coals and humilliated in public for not ABSing enough (80 or 81). That and just certain leaders (all Corps Grads) being very pushy and meddlesome. I really feel for you folks who stayed and endured the 90's and beyond. But I will bug out of this thread and let those who had actual experinece in TWI 2, 3, & 4 share their experience and insight. Goey

Way Back, Exactly. Some may have experienced this stuff more or less, depending upon the leader(s) in their particular area. Nevertheless, HQ began tightening the control noose from very early on, before I even became involved in 75/76. Not having been around before 75, I had nothing to compare my experiences as a newommer to. So naturally I had no real idea of how TWI was changing. And also being "new" and just having been hit with the "Greatness of the Word" you are kind of on a pink cloud for a while - oblivious to certain things that you may normally notice. However, after two years of being a WOW/Wow Vet and I began seeing a progression of legalism and control taking place. I saw nice folks turn into jerks and jerks getting assigned to many leadership postions. The common denominator seemed to be the Way Corps where folks were exposed to jerk training. Many folks comming back from Advanced Class training seem to have this air of elitism about them also. By 82 I had almost had enough, but when Craig ( head jerk) was announced a President that made my decision for me to leave TwI. I could only see things getting progressively worse and not better. What some folks don't realize is that the seeds of legalism and control had been planted even before the "good old days" of the 70's. It just took some time for them to sprout and grow. Look at it now. What at one time could have been a true movement of God, is now reduced to a stupid little cult that thrives by controlling a few peoples lives while selling them "protection" for for 10-15 percent of their income.

Why would a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministy even be concerned with such trivial and insignificant tasks as how to fold a T-shirt or what direction to rake the carpet? TWI is not about Biblical research, teaching or fellowship. It is about power and control over it's supporters. On way to contol people is to get them so wrapped up in meaningless and trivial tasks (out of either fear or blind loyalty) that they no have no time to think for themselves. So the ministry "thinks" for them. Why in the world would a grown adult with half a brain think that the angle of the end piece on a roll or toilet paper has any spiritual significance whatsoever? -- Why in the world would a they allow someone to dictate to them how to fold a T-shirt in thier own home? -- Indoctrination, blind loyalty, or fear. Think about it Innnies. Are you really serving the true God by supporting TWI and it's errant practices? -- Is it really God's will for you to allow them to control your lives?

Did someone call me ? Ah yes, a dusty refrigerator top is a sure indicator of poor vaginal hygiene of the woman of the house. Any woman who has a dirty refrigerator in her home no doubt has a dirty odiferous @#%%& also. I thought everyone knew that. It's the Word, people. Nothing but the Word!

If we assume that the 3 BOT's are the *only* members if the corporation then it would seem that any two members could oust the other by majority vote. However, if the voting membership consists of a "Cabinet", then the Cabinet by a "quorem" would be able to remove a President or any other board member and appoint or elect a replacement. I find it doubtful that the three BOT's have sole control or TWI. We would just have to see TWI's Charter and By Laws to know the process for sure.

LCM *could* still be President if not for the lawsuits. However he *could* have been shot by an angry husband also. It seems to me tht LCM was on a path to self-destruction. Being removed as President of TWI may have saved his sorry life. Just thinking "out loud" .

Jonny, A long time ago someone did a seemingly errant post. The post simply consisted of the single word, "The" -- nothing more. The poster (Rafael) thought it to be a mistake at first. However, some others, when they came upon this post saw a great profoundness in this single word "The". So the legacy of "THE" began and blossomed from there. THE rest is history.

Oldies Posted and asked: Oldies, did you ever directly hear any non-human "voice" speaking to you like I am speaking to you now? -- If so, did the voice specifically say, "Oldies, This is God speaking..." as oppossed to, "This is Jesus speaking ..." Oldies, I wouldn't be too terribly concerned. It is doubtful that the absence of hearing voices is an accurate indicator of "spiritual bankruptcy".

Imbus, Posting your story here is not intrusive at all. But, as far as responses go, you just never can tell here. Like they say in A.A. - Keep comming back.

Oak, If I am not mistaken the Jewish day is divided into two "12-hour" periods. The day begins at sunrise and ends at sunset and the night begins at sunset and ends at sunrise. So, at most times of the year the hours of the day will not be the same length as the hours of the night. Take today for example. Here, in Austin TX: Sunrise: 6:38 AM Sunset: 6:41 PM (Both day and night have pretty close to 12 hours.) But.... on December 17th for example (in Palestine) here is what it would be: Sunrise: 6:36 AM Sunset: 4:39 PM Daytime has only 10 hours and 3 minutes. Night time has 13 hours and 57 minutes. By the Jewish reckoning of day and night, the day would still be divided into 12 one "hour" periods and the night 12 "hours" also. But the day "hours" would be only 50.25 minutes long and the night hours would be 69.75 minutes long. So if I wanted to be "accurate" for Dec 17th here is how it the Jewish day "hours" would correspond. 1st = 6:36 AM 2nd = 7:26 3rd = 8:16 4th = 9:07 5th = 9:57 6th = 10:47 7th = 11:38 8th = 12:28 PM 9th = 01:18 10th= 02:09 11th= 02:59 12th= 03:49 Ends at 4:39 PM (Sunset) It really depends on the day of the year as to how the Jewish "hours" correspond to modern hours. Maybe Wierwille was just generalizing - maybe he didn't know what he was taking about either. I suspect the latter. For a P.H.D. his work was sloppy at best.

And then there is the money aspect to consider. TWI would rather have had us purchase their "filtered for accuracy" music (much of it very amateurish) than to waste our money on devilish stuff like Haydn or Mahler or even (God Forbid) Springsteen.

Selected Quotes From MJ: MJ, I am beginning to suspect that you are either still in TWI or else you really want to be. The above statements show either naiveity and gullibility or extreme callousness and denial. What you are saying here is that those who were used and abused either lied about it (no proof) or what happened to them happened because the were not worthy enough to have been in such a "wonderful ministy" as TWI and were just dirtying up the place. Who are you kidding? -- Where does that leave you? (Assuming any of your story is actualy true.) I find your comments incredulous.

I bet when the WayGB sees this and reports back to HQ that this song will be removed from the Sing Along the Way. Or like some others they could just change the lyrics to make it "accurate" . Maybe something like this: --------------------------------- They Care! I serve the Board of Trustees They watch me everyday I know they love and care for me Whatever folks may say I see their tender kindess So I will never stray From all that they have taught me Along their narrow way (Chorus) They care! They care! I know they care for me. I send them all my money I'm happy as can be. They care, They care! With knowing eyes they see. They're serving me with all their heart Hail to the Bee Oh Tee!

I don't think you can predict how any given leader will react when/if someome decides to end their relationship with TWI. Leaving with your dignity intact is a nice goal, but I wouldn't count on it actually happening. Take the "high-road" if possible, if it is not possible then just take one that will get you out - hopefully sooner than later. But, like the Paul Simon song goes, "There must be 50 ways leave your lover". 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover

MJ, You posted: MJ, Insurgent is "in" TWI and is telling you first hand what he has seen and heard from his leaders -- And you say it is "NoT true" ???? What gives? Personally, I think you would rather argue with a fence post rather than try to understand the real facts. Why not listen to folks who are in a position to know -- and consider what they have to say ? Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

Steve, Where do you get that Clinton was not a Rhodes Scholar? Got some documentation on that? I have done some searching and so far, every indcation is that he was a Rhodes Scholar. Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"

WhiteDove Posted: You must have left pertty early like me (I bailed in late 82). I also had trouble understanding this for a while. But consider that after we left, Mogism began to prevail in TWI and folks were taught and began to believe that the Mog's spoke for and represented God's will in everything. So, to tell a Mog to stick it would have been equivalent to telling God to stick it and would have been a free ticket to becoming ridiculed. publicly humilliated, possessed, M&A'd and certainly a "greasespot by midnight." Goey "Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"