Goey

Posted by UncleHairy: Why do you think that? Craig became a liability to TWI costing them millions in legal fees and lost ABS. Why would Rosie and the other powers that be want Craig around now? But your theory is interesting to say the least -- and maybe even possible. Let me know how this pans out for you. Sounds kinda illegal to me. I think a better idea would be to take the bail money and legal fees that would no doubt be required by the vigilantism you suggested, and use it to hire a first class Investigations/Intelligence Service like Fortress Global to do some serious snooping to find out what ties LCM may still have to TWI. And while they are at it have them try to run down any overseas accounts that may be held by current and former trustees of TWI. .

Radar Posted: If we want to support that theory, then possibly we could look Mrs Wierwille's peers, like Dorothy Owens, Emmogene Allen, etc. Were they also submissive in the same ways as Mrs Wierwille? If they were, then Radar possibly has a good point for the generational thing as being "some of it". I never observed VPW and his treatment of Mrs Wierwille, but I will offer this. Today there are religious groups where the women/wives are expected to be submissive. They base this upon their interpretation of scripture. These groups exist in today's society and not necessarily in 1930's rural communities. The people involved are of a different generation than Mrs. Wierwille, yet there is still the submission thing going on. It goes on in TWI to this day - and the folks were not raised with 30's values - they come from all walks of live and from differing cultures. Also consider that marriages are different, even within a group like TWI. In one marriage the husband may be more damanding of submission than in another marriage. One woman may be more prone to submissivenes than another. Personalities are different. I would guess that, considering VPW's personality that anyone married to him would have to have been pretty submissive, regardless of what generation they may have been raised in. Tack on his religious beliefs and his moginess, and I doubt that the generational thing was too much of a factor in Mrs. Wierwilles "submissiveness." -- "Some of it" maybe, but I doubt very much.

Posted by Oldies: Ok Oldies, how's this then? -- VPW and the BOT were used by Satan to abuse and wreak havoc upon many of those who trusted them. No No No. VPW and the BOT did not actually hurt or abuse anyone themselves. It was the Devil that actually did it. Just taking orders you know. Not their fault ! So let's not talk about VPW or the BOT in a bad light becasue they weren't responsible! -- it was the Devil! (How did we miss that?) But instead, Let's credit them with all the good they did (Praise be to VPW and the BOT!) and let's blame the Devil for all the bad ( Boooo Satan, Booooooooo !) Feel better now ?

Aww Shucks, Looks like you got your head all screwed on straight - eh? - Prospering and all that. Good for you. I am impressed. But, if you have such "better things to do", then why are you here in the first place? - Why are you crying over this? Be gone. GS is what it is - take it or leave it.

TWI only taught one side of the reward stuff. Here are some select verses of the other side. Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. It seems to me that doing good for the sake of rewards is missing the point rather badly. Goey

I know he does Sudo, I just wanted to post something to remind this bozo so that he knows that we know. Too bad he dosen't have the ball$ to post something from time to time or to at least introduce himself to the posters here ...

Hey, I see that John Linder is logged in to the Cafe. (2:56 PM CST) Isn't this the notorious head of the WayGB? -- Probably collecting "intelligence" for TwI. What an interesting and rewarding job his must be.

So, in other words, God is only able to protect folks in pairs? And then, only if the proper form is filled out and approved by some knuckle-headed TWI leader? LMAO, This is just plain silly. It seems TWI distanced itself and evolved a long way from PFAL and the 70's/80's when as individuals with "Christ in you", we were "more than conquerors". How did "the adversary" get so much power? It sounds like errant doctrine, supersition, paranoia, and the incessant desire to control took the place of sound doctrine under LCM and Rosie. I am glad I missed this.

Howard Allen, God's greatest layman? I met Howard a few times and he gave me the creeps. If I were doing a movie about TWI I would cast William H. Macy as Howard Allen.

Posted by Insurgent You make a valid point by your question. Man cannot take away what has been given by God. But my question is, did these all of these TWI reverends have a "gift ministy" to begin with? Ordination in TWI (or anywhere else) does not necessarly signify or correlate with a "gift ministry" given by God, neither does it preclude it. What man gives - man can take away. What God gives ________ (fill in the blank).

Concerning John Bonham..... According to Musiceffect.com: According to enclclopedia.the fredirectory.com: The claim of that TWI person that Bohnam was doing some kind of occult thing was probably fueled because of fellow Zepplin member, Jimmy Pages' involvement with the Magick/Satanic cult in England called the Argenteum Astrum (Sliver Star) which was founded by Aleister Crowley. Crowley wrote "Magick in Theory and Practice" which is a modern Black Magic/Satanism classic.

It is probably not a good idea to have two active firewalls. There could be conflict problems. Here is how to disable XP's silly firewall... Left Click .. Start > Settings > Control Panel > Network Connections Highlight .. Local Area Connection or which ever connection gets you on the Internet and Right Click it. Left Click ... Properties This is the screen you should now have displayed Click the Advanced Tab at the top and now you should have this. Click on "Protect My Computer and Network.." to remove the check mark. Then click on OK untill all the screens are closed. Task Accomplished ! Good Luck !

Do you need a Firewall and Antivirus? Consider this. I did a clean install of XP Pro onto an empty volume and then conected to the Internet to download Critical Updates. Within 11 minutes of being on the Internet with no Firewall and no Antivius installed, the system became infected with the Welchia Worm. The system hung with that annoying RPC error and could not complete the updates. It cost me 15 minutes manually removing the Worm. Of cousre I should have installed the Firewall and AV before I ever got online. I knew better. The Internet is epidemically infected with thousands of nasty bugs constantly trying to infect your system. XP and 2000 are particulary vunerable. With No Firewall and no Antivirus installed, you will definitley get infected, probably within a few hours, if not minutes of being on the Internet -- That's how bad it is out here in Cyberworld. BTW, I use Sygate Personal Firewall (Free) and Avast Antivirus (Free) and they have worked flawlessly for me for over 6 months. The Avast AV automatically updates its virus database daily if not more often (Unlike Norton) and Program Updates are also automatic and free. This company, Awill Software, is out of Chechloslvakia and they are very serious about their product. It is Excellent IMO. Free License and updates for 2 years. Sygate Firewall has a nice feature where you can back trace the source of port scans and hack attacks and then can do "WhoIs" search for you giving you a source IP, Provider Name and abuse contacts. It will also automatically notify you by email of hack attempts if you want. And yes, Microsoft's built in Firewall is a joke. I am not sure it does much of anything really. Install a Real Firewall like Sygate or Zone Alarm and then be sure to turn it off. Also if you want to test your system to see how secure it is the link below... It should pass all the tests. http://scan.sygate.com/ Goey

Oldies, Oldies, you are the most thick-headed person I have ever come in contact with. How many times do I have have to tell you that I think that good things came as a result of TWI? How many times do you have to hear that I think PFAL had some very good stuff in it? How hard is is to understand that I can acknowledge the good and yet still see the corruption. The fact that I saw corruption in TWI-1 from the get go, does not mean I find it "repugnant" that good resulted. God and his Word were bigger than the corruption. I give God the credit - not VPW or TWI. Do you have a problem with that? Why keep trying to paint the false picture? You are wearing it out. Now, why didn't you address the other parts of my post? - Especially the paragraphs about consent and doing the MOG.

Oldies, Were the alleged abuses all fantasies too? . The fantasy I see is yours that holds your precious PFAL up as the greatest thing since Mom's Apple Pie, TWI-1 up as an abuse free, true movement of God, and VPW up as God's true Man Of God. That's the actuall fantasy. What you can't seem to grasp is that this is not about folks "wanting" to discredit Wierwille or PFAL. My preference would be that Werwille would have been an upright Man of God and that PFAL would have been what VPW represented it to be. But such is not the case and denying it only adds to the problems. Of course he wasn't. But numerous first hand accounts by those close to him say that he acted as if he was a king and acted as if these women were all fair game. But, you choose your fantasy beliefs over the first hand accounts of those who witnessed these thngs - why is that? It is my opinion that your own narcisscism and adoration of VPW and PFAL won't allow you to admit that the things that you hold dear were actually rotten at the core. In other words - you are a big chicken that is all full of himself. According to the accounts I have seen and consider reliable, it would suggest that VPW did indeed have issues with sex, but personally I think "sex pervert" fits better than "sex addict", however both may actually fit. As far as "thousands" go, I kind of doubt that. Wierwille was no Wilt Chamberlain. Hundreds is much more likely (or even less). But all it really takes is one, and I personally know of three that I have spoken to first hand and consider reliable. And to be honest, I know of one that I don't actually believe to be true. What you have really done here Oldies is take this one "outlandish story" and built a strawman around it, while ignoring, denying and belittling the first hand accounts of those in a position to know. You are lying to yourself and helping no one. Your goal seems to be only to preserve your fantasy about VPW and PFAL - no matter the cost. I think "some" of them were possibly consensentual where the other person knew it was wrong and did it anyway. However those encounters where the woman "consented" because VPW, as the Man Of God, (and his assistants) used his/their position of presumed spiritual authority, and a twisting of scriptures to teach and convince these women (who would normally not have done such) that under Grace, sex with a married man (Wierwille) was not only ok, but actually spiritual -- were not consentual at all. This is classic abuse. It is a dispicable abuse of authority and of the women themselves. You can't seem to grasp that. Why ? And even if some of these women "wanted to do the MOG", as the supposed Man Of God and one of spiritual authority it was his duty to set them straight rather than to take advantage of their error. Of all people VPW should have known and done better. And Oldies, where do you suppose the idea came from that it was ok "to do Mog" anyway? " -- Wouldn't you think that a real MOG would have corrected that error rather than take advantage of it ? -- I do. Oldies, what I see here with you, is that you hold VPW (the supoposed Man Of God) to a lower standard than the women that looked up to him as the Mog who knew the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You freely and openly accuse the women of adultery yet about the best you can do with your hero Wierwille is say "I don't deny it happend". You are blinded by your adoration of Wierwille and PFAL and almost as dispicable as he was. .

For Oldies, From PFAL: As the story goes in the Bible, David; 1, Coveted another man's wife. 2. Commited adultery with her. 3. Murdered her husband by sending him where he would certainly be killled so that he could marry her. Wierwielle says that a few people knew about what happened and then claims that nobody had a right to say anything because David was King and every woman in the Kingdom was the property of the King. If Wierwille was right and every woman in the Kingdom "belonged to the King" then David was justified in "fooling around" with Bathsheba and. Wierwille is implying that here that David as King was above both the 7th and 10th commandments. However, Wierwille was dead wrong. There nothing in scripture that suggests that King David owned the women, or that he as King was exempt from the 7th and 10th commandments. Wierwille goes on to say: It is interesting that Wierwille calls David's adultery "fooling around" and not the adultery that it really was. David was just privately "fooling around" with one of of the women in his Kingdom that he technically owned. It seems that Wierwille took his own teaching here to heart. Look at it again. (Words in brackets added by me.) "A few people [ Inner circle] knew about the sequence of events [covetousness, adultery, and murder] leading to David’s marriage, but nobody had a right to say anything [Lock Box] because David was king [Top Leader - MOG] and every woman in the kingdom was technically the property of the King or belonged to the king." Uncanny parallel isn't it? Wierwille was the MOG and his Kingdom was TWI. His had a inner circle that knew of his adultery but were silent - some followed his adulterous lead. His female subjects were typically Way Corps. Thats where the parallel ends. The difference between Wierwille and David was that David repented and Wierwille didn't. Also to be fair, Wierwille didn't have anyone killed (that we know of.) But when a modern day Nathan confronted Wierwille, or if one of his female subjects refused him they were discredited ( false witness) and shamed out of the ministry. Oldies, there is your wonderful hero and your precious PFAL ...

Oldies, No one here ever said it was ok Oldies - Not even once. You are arguing againt yourself here and againt your hero VPW. See, your hero VPW did say by implication in his teaching on David that it was ok for the "King" to commit adultry. You rightly say it is never ok, yet VPW impies that it is ok, his expection being "the King" (Top Leader). What was Wierwille in relationship to TWI? How blind are you? Imbus did not use that as an "excuse" as you attempt to mischaracterize what she said, but rather as an "explanation" as to how she came to that mindset. Where did Imbus attempt to "excuse" her actions? She didn't. It's hard for you because, you can't see past your own peachy view of PFAL/TWI-1 and your hero VPW who started all the TWI adultery mess himself. You can't seem to be able to add 2 plus two or to connect the dots because YOUR mindset won't allow it. You would rather cast blame and point out sins of those who were deceived, than to consider that misuse of PFAL and of "the Word" by your hero was where it all started. You posted to Zix: Oldies, is a 17-year-old girl who has never lived away from home a true adult? I would call this an innocent child myself and quite impressonable - especially at the hands of someone they think is kind and loving and who they trust to really know the real truth of "the Word". Oldies, considering all the first-hand testimony that you have heard over the last 18 months or so, by folks much closer to the source than you were, is it really such a leap to consider that some young women were deceived to believe, if even for a moment, that adultery was really ok and not even really adultery because God was actually being served by blessing/serving the MOG? Is really so hard to consider that PFAL and "the Word" were used(misused) as tools in this ploy? Oldies, take off your rose colored glasses concerning TWI/PFAL and VPW and open your eyes to the deception and "mind control" that went on in your precious TWI-1 at the hands of your hero and those he infulenced. Until then you will continue to be the resident Pharisee here at GS and will have nothing to offer except as an example of how blind loyalty and denial can sear one's concience.

Posted By Oldiesman That is quite obvious. But not only do you not get it, you seem to intentionally not get it. It's like when you perceive an attack on on your precious PFAL or your hero VPW, that you automatially go in to defense mode and abandon your capacity for reason and objectivity and loose what little compassion that you may have left in that stoney heart of yours. YOu posted: This is one of the more insane theories I've heard. The one making this claim commits adultery, doesn't accept personal responsibility for her own actions, and to add insult to injury, blames PFAL! Oldies, go back and read Imbus' first post again. Where is it that she denies any personal responsibility? You are conjuring that up in your mind. She freely admitted what she did and then clearly stated that "I wanted to be a spiritual women and I believed at the time it was my obligation", which among other things implies that she no longer believes that. Her post is laden with remorse and grief, but all you can see is that she "blames" your prescious PFAL. -- But did she? No, she said she believed the mindset that led up to this "originated with PFAL", pointing to VPW's teaching that "King David could have any women in the kingdom". That teaching, while not openly justifying adultery, was practiced by both VPW and LCM (and others) when in private circles they set theselves up as "Kings" (MOgs with special sexual needs). TWI was laden with young women who were zealous to serve God. They looked up to VPW and LCM (and other leaders) as truly spiritual and of great spiritual understanding. So it was pretty easy for VPW, LCM, et al, to make prey of them, convincing them that is was not only ok becasue of the needs of the MOG, but that they had been picked becasue they could spiritually "handle it" -- unlike others who were spiritually immature and would not understand. So it was also pretty easy to keep quiet and hidden becasue revealing this might be a "stumbling block" to those that were spiritually immature and "couldn't handle it". Oldies, this is not an "insane theory" as you claim, where PFAL is "blamed" and those invloved simply want hugs and to be told they did nothing wrong. This stuff really happened and there are quit a few folks out there still harboring guilt and shame over this stuff, wondering how and why it happend, and trying to make sense of it. The last thing they need is some insensitive PFAL/VPW apologist butthead jerk like you pointing out their "sin" to them. Why don't you just go away and spread your ignorance somewhere else where it will be appreciated.

Oldies said: Oldies, You are a real piece of work. Here someone has bared their soul to show the mindset that allows for this kind of abuse - and what do you do? -- Attempt to accuse and convict her of adultery. You are one very ignorant and insensitive *@$T@#!

Posted by Dmiller: As a general rule of thumb, any form of excellence beyond TWI was labeled as evil -- borne of either possession or the "wrong seed".

Galen Posted: Galen, you were isolated on one of those underwater boats (submarine) or in areas where there were no "corps-grads" nearby -- and for all practical purposes not in the same TWI as most of the rest of us. I saw lots of "abuse" at the Twig level. People were pressured in to ABSing money that they really didn't have to spare. Folks were tricked into taking the PFAL class. Kids were tortured with wooden spoons. Peoples lives were unreasonably meddled with. People were yelled and screamed at in the name of God and the Word. People were told they were possessed. Folks were expected to serve leaders instead of the other way around like it is supposed to be. (Ever have a "leader" come and clean your house for free?) While it was not all done by "corps-grads", I do think that the Corps was intrumental in passing down this kind of stuff either by example or by formal or informal teachings, but ultimately it originated at the top.

If I am not mistaken, when Yahoo sends you a forgotten password, they give you a different one than you had before.

Oldies, It ain't about you dude. Can't you see that? It's about Wierwille and Martindale and their behavior paterns. Paterns that were documented and observed first hand by those very close to them. And this is the the same kind of behavior that is common to most all Guru's and cult leaders. Maybe you don't want to admit that you were involved with a cult. Maybe it is too much for you to handle. Well neither did I for quite some time. Like you, I was not one of the glassy-eyed VPW/LCM followers. So what? - Not everyone was, and no one is really suggesting such that I can see. But there were quite a few glassy-eyed followers, and I think you know that. Oldies, it's really not so bad owning up to being involved with a cult. That in no way negates your "hunger for truth" or the good you received while involved or the good you may have done. That stands separate. However, your hunger for truth and the benefits you received or the good you did does not wash away VPW's narcissism nor does it relieve TWI from being a cult. He was still narcissistic and TWI was still a cult (from very early on IMO.) If you had as much desire for the truth(facts) about TWI and VPW as you say you have for the Word, then I suspect you would be singing a little different song. It's not about you Oldies.

Grizz posted Grizz, Where have I in any way stated or implied such? ... Show one post of mine where I said anything like what you posted above and I will answer your question. Until then I will simply ignore it and assume you did not read what I have written. You apparantly have no clue as to what I think, so either my communitation skills suck or you reading comprehension skills suck ot it is a combination of the two. Again, show me where I have said anything like, "...all WC were privy and there wasn’t one good honest decent Christian among them?" I would like to see it.

No you didn't. You presumed that I was talking about one of two persons that you are personally close to, and in a sly way made an implication that I resent. Understandable. But I bet no one but you even had a thought at all that I could have been refering to the men you mentioned until you made and issue of it. I disagree. I corrected my error which I then found out later was not the actual error. He was indeed 6th Corps and quite involved in "research" at TWI. I have since been informed that this person was heavily involved with the "research team" at TWI if not actually an officiall member. My mistake was using the term "research team" in a way different than you understand it. I owe you no apology at all. And I am used to the "tactic" you used as well. I attacked your method in how you asked your question. I found it condescending and pompous. I still do. I understand that a 6th Corps TWI "Reverend" did exactly what I said he did, and that he was closely involved with research at one point at TWI. I was told that he was on the "research team" by what I believe to be a reliable source that I had no reason to doubt so I posted that as well. I am still not convinced that he was not, but I am double checking my source to make sure. The last thing I want to do is to be inaccurate and since I have been posting here I have made every effort to be a accurate as possible. But it seems that you took my post as an intentional attack on either you husband or JS that you got quite defensive. That is undestandble I suppose. But it at was not my intent at all. And I think you knew that from the start. *Double yawn* back at you. Nothing personal Catcup, but I do not accept you as the final authority on squat. I do appreciate your input here, really I do, but I will probably always be a bit obstinate and rude at times. It is my nature, so don't look for any special treatment from me. You are just one poster among many. I agree and have made every effort to do so.