Goey

I agree with Raf on this. The vast majority of the 16 million hits are not revelant to any lawsuit and actually do not indicate that "The Way" is in a group's name at all. That search will find stuff like "this is the way to brush your teeth." But that's not a problem, you don't need 16 million hits to make the point - a few thousand ought to be plenty. So I searched with Google, searhing only titles - like this: -- Results: 398,000 hits Then I further refined the search and added Christian OR Jesus OR Christ OR Church OR Ministry - like this: Results: 9,980 hits. Much more revelant hits. And more than enough to make the point without unnecessary embelishment.

John, The link you see below is actually a gif picture of the text and not real text. I put that gif in my signature and then hyperlinked it to the actual Web Page.

If you gauge your spirituality on how many times you slept through a certain bible study class ........you might be in a cult When your baby's first words are "Lo shanta mala kaseeta" instead of "mama" or "dada" ......you might be in a cult. When you have been fired from your 4th job in one month, your spouse leaves you, and you don't know where your next meal will come from -- and you look at it as an "opportunity" ....you might be in a cult.

Now that is the $64,000 question.

Wonder1, If you would take the time to read on the main Website you would see that: "Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees." Now the question that arises for me is why in he heck are you here? What is YOUR agenda? Are you one of glassy-eyed TWI psychophants folks who thinks telling the facts and truth about TWI is "bashing slamming and cutdowns"? Were you ever even involved in TWI? I suspect you weren't and are just here to stir things up. From your posts that I have read you dont have much of a clue. If you don't like it here, you know where the door is.

Laleo, By "outside looking in", I meant now outside of the infulence of TWI, looking back in at our past. I never meant to even remotely suggest that you were an "outsider". The oversimplification I refered to was mostly in the statement, "We complied, foolishly at times, but those mistakes were ours to make." True, but it fails to address the WHY of the compliance. How it came to be that Way Leaders had this power over many of us cannot be explained as simply as saying we were foolish and and it was our mistake.

Steve's test is the one I use for who and whom. But in causual or informal writing and conversation there is nothing wrong with using "that or which" in regards to people. I know folks who have managed to go most of their lives without using word "whom" at all. They communicate quite effectively. With some things here are no hard and fast rules. The last thing I want to do is end up sounding like William F. Buckley when I am talking with m rancher buddies or posting here at GS.

Posteb by Laleo: An oversimplification I think. While we were certainly not held at gunpoint, TWI held a psycological power over many of us that was just as threatening as 12 gauge shotgun. From the outside looking in it is easy to say that "We complied, foolishly at times, but those mistakes were ours to make". But this fails to address WHY many of us complied to the ungodly and absurd demands (oppression) of TWI and it's leaders. I think there comes a point where a person can surrender their will over to a group like TWI. It may be a quick conscious decision or may be something that happens over time. I also think that TWI's programs, policies and doctrines were/are designed to this end. Once this happens, in many cases, the authority and control that the group (TWI in our case) wields upon an individual can be almost total within the scope it's operations. It can be more in some than in others and TWI was good at identifying where individuals should be placed in order to take advantage of them. It is at this point of surrender that a person will then do almost anything for the furtherance of the group (God's Will). In their mind they are doing the right thing. It could be the "leader" who busted up a family, or a woman who serviced the MOG, or a couple who sells their home to be debt free. Yes, these things are "foolish" as we look at them now some are even sinful and ungodly, but at the time they seemed like the right things to do many folks. Why? Was the source of the "oppression" our own foolishness? No. Sure, no one "forced" anyone to make TWI or a MOG their master, but this level of misguided trust and commitment was taught and developed by TWI - and once attained in a person, TWI had as close to "absolute authority" over them as you can get. The person has for all practical purposes lost their "power over their oppressor" in certain areas of their lives.

Another interesting opinion from the 7th Circuit Court Of Appeals. TE-TA-MA TRUTH FOUNDATION VS. WORLD CHURCH OF THE CREATOR From the opinion: "A generic term is one that refers to the genus of which the particular product is a species." The genus would be "Christianity" which commonly understands "The Way" to mean Jesus Christ or from Acts - the early Church. A random survey of Christian Ministers and congregants when asked the question: "What does "The Way" mean?", would most likely support this point. I would also argue then that TWI's services are a "species" within the "genus" of Christianity. Folks within Christianity do not and never have asscociated "The Way" specifically with TWI's products and services.

Raf, Yes, I agree that would be quite juvenile. And can't imagine that anyone could possibly that it was actually fun to type out something like or even something like

Longone, I may have been the one to first post the "image" of: But Tom clearly wrote the actual domain name of before I did. But it seems that the early bird gets the worm on these things, so the first one to actually register: will have the exclusive right to use A quick search of register.com shows the following domain names to be available. First come first served. Get 'em while they're hot!

Tom, The courts have ruled that gripe sites and parody sites are pretty much ok. You can simply add "sucks" to the ned of the domain name For example, it should be perfect ok for me to register and use the domain name: As long as I do not use this site for commerce that would compete with TWI - they can't touch me.

Oldies, Do you know of anyone who "can't function mentally " without harping on VPW's misdeeds? Sure, there are those people who will remain "perpetual victims" but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. You are taking a small and non-representative sample and attempting to apply to the whole. Even if someone did take a few moments each day to wail about VPW's misdeeds here at GS, that is not indicitive of an "inability to function mentally." I could lay a similar charge against you. That you "can't function mentally" without blame-shifting and pointing out the sins of those that VPW wounded. However, even though it's probably closer to the truth than your charge, it would be the same logical fallacy that you used. So I won't do it. I give you the benefit of the doubt you can "function mentally" outside of GS and that you don't spend all your waking hours blame-shifting and defending VPW/TWI-1 by tearing down folks that they harmed. I assume that your blame-shifting and defensness of VPW is not consuming your life so much that you can't mentally function without doing it. Am I right or wrong?

Tom, That's a fair ruling, but it probably has no bearing at all on Pat's case.

It is very true that "no one is perfect." By nature human beings will always fall short of perfection. However, people were not just hurt by "people" acting on their own. Many more were also hurt by people acting in an official capacity while carrying out the policies and doctrines of "the ministry". What has happend and continues to happen to people in The Way Internatinal cannot be written off or swept under the rug by rationalizing that the blame lies with the person that hurt you -- and then even further rationalized that, "Oh well, no body's perfect, lets not lay any blame at "the ministry". Since God created us as imperfect beings, your argument when taken to it's least common denominator, is kind of like Adam telling God: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." It is TWI's harshness, lack of compassion and knowingly ungodly policies, (among other things) that are the reason folks have "divorced" TWI. Not simply because they got hurt by an imperfect person. So to answer your question - no "the ministry" is not perfect. IMO is it no even a "ministry" at all. It just pretends to be one. Welcome to Greasespot !

Oldies, Oldies, prior to TWI, did you have the intelligence and heart to know that the trinity was wrong? Did you have the intelligence and heart to know that the dead were not alive and that there were four crucified with Jesus? It has abosultely nothing to do with intellignence and heart - and I think you know it.

You take a quote from someone, and use it out of context attmepting to make a point that the author never intended. Then when challenged on your out of context usage, suggest that you will add a few words and then use it as your own. Like father-like son. Wierwille did about the same thing with PFAL.

Oldies Posted: So then Oldies would a "Child in the Word" qualify? No? Yes? -- Or only children by age? At what age does a person officially become an adult? - Biblically speaking. So let me get this straight ... If I, knowing the Word "like it has not been known since the first century", take a woman who is relatively young in the Word, and who looks up to me as an Apostle, understanding deep spiritual truths, and then I teach that woman that having casual sex with me is not really sin, but instead that it is blessing God, -- then the woman is just as culpable in the sin of adultry as I am. Is that how it goes? What say ye O wise one?

Mike Posted: Uh Mike? ... Isn't that about all you do - pass along only one side of the story and shut you mind to "due process" (other side(s)). You have have even admitted it. One standard for Mike - another standard for everyone else. -- Hypocrite.

Speak for yourself Oldies. Of course TWI was not *officially* racist. And many of the followers were not either. However, I was aquainted with a certain Limb Leader reverend (80-81?) who used the "N" word quite often in regards to blacks. He despised blacks , and discouraged witnessing to them. I was there. Goey

These "Christians" may may not agree ....Chritistian Separatists

Posted by Oldiesman Oldies, I submit that you did know know Mr. Wilerwille at all. And my guess is that you spent little if any personal time with him. What you "know" of Mr. Wierwille is your own fantasy image of him -- not based upon personal experience and knowledge, but rather upon what you want him to have been. To consider these things to be true about Mr. Wierwille is to consider that many of your own ideas are wrong and is a threat to your fantasy images about VPW and TWI-1. You are not insulted -- you are threatened with the idea that your belief system is based upon lies and deception and that your hero was not the man you imagine him to have been. You can't handle the thought of being wrong and your little fantasy world falling apart. You are too invested in it - thus your protest.

Put'em up! PUT'EM UP! Which oneaya first? I'll fightcha both together if you want! I'll fightcha with one paw tied behind my back! I'll fightcha standin' on one foot! I'll fightcha with my eyes closed! (The Cowardly Lion - The Wizard of Oz)

IT seems to me that TWI has pretty much disassociated themselves from VPW. I dug pretty deep in TWI's Website and found no mention of Mr Wierwille at all. On the other hand many of the splinter groups seem to still hold VPW up as the "Father in the Word". I am not sure where CFF stands here, since thier website also seems to make no mention of VPW either but their page on Research Principles looks like it came directly out of PFAL and the doctrine seem pretty close to pre-Craigan TWI. It's interesting that neither TWI nor CFF make any mention of VPW. (Unless I missed it). And unlike many other christian organizations, neither offer any organizational history or qualifications of their "leaders". Like TWI, CFF has no members except for their board of trustees. So these five most likely make all the decisions without much official input from the "members" that they don't realy have. I doubt that these two groups will ever unite. There is no way that their trustees would be willing to share power over their flocks or the associated revenue streams.

It must be a terrible burden to be legally omniscient. Maybe we should abolish the Federal Judiciary, fire all the judges and have Longone issue all the rulings.