Goey

Refiner, You posted: So are we to understand that you have actually been "involved" as in an adherant in each of the groups you listed above? Somehow I find that rather difficult to comprehend - that a person that seems as bright as you would jump from one cult to another as a practicing adherant. Were you ever really a practicing member of any of any of these the groups, or did you just hang out an/or infiltrate them in order to collect material for your book? I guess what I am asking is, what do you mean by "involved"?

Well, oldies, everyone also "knows" that the Trinity is true, that the dead are now alive in heaven, and that there were only 2 crucified with Jesus. VPW/TWI was able to get folks to reject these accepted doctrines that "everybody knows" and believe otherwise. Why is it then so difficult to believe that VPW could convince a few elite and a few trusting co-eds who thought he was the MOGFODAT and a spiritual giant, that the traditional teaching on adultery was also wrong? He did it in secret because HE knew it was wrong and HE knew that "MOST" others would never accept it.

Refiner, Those things were aparantly taught in private a select few. The men were usually the "elite". The women were just about anyone that they could get to buy that line of crap - Even if only for long enough to get their jollies. Shoenheit, was fired for writing his paper that spoke out againt adultery. He became somewhat of a martyr and legend for writing a paper that would have been just plain common sense to most of Christianity.

I didn't stay that long after I came to the conlcusion that TWI was a controling cult, misapplied the scriupotures, and was going downhill pretty fast. - Maybe a year or so. It was still too long. I was not Corps or Staff or even a TC, and therefore not in any any position where I thought my staying would have any effect in making things better. So basically no one was interested in what I had to say anyway. Just a TWI peon. Also, I was single, and it was in the early 80's before M & A caught on, so I was not fearful of losing family. Once I realized that God existed outside of The Way International, I was history.

Steve, Radar, In Refiner's defense, when he came here he fully disclosed that he was a shunned "apostate" from the Jehovah's Witnesses and never involved with TWI. IMO, a cult is a cult an there are many similarities. I would imagine that the reasons JW's stay after they realized that they are involved in a controling cult might be similar to the reasons many of us stayed in TWI. While, he may not have been iinvolved in TWI, I think that maybe he can learn from us and that possibly we can learn from him also.

That's a great disclaimer. But we are all human beings with intellect. If it would be "intellectual suicide" for you then why would it not be "intellectual suicide" for anyone else? (You never did explain what intellectual suicide meant.) If you dug real deep, I think that you might find that it has very little to do actual with "intellect". But then again, you announced that your sources and beliefs are not up for scrutiny, which I take to mean that you are closed to real and meaningful two-way discussion on this -- too bad.

Posted by Garth, Garth, I realize that Imbus was not refering to actual mental death, etc - and that it was not literal. I was being somewhat sarcastic. However "suicide" implies self-inflicted, (usually intentinal) death. - Death of what? Maybe we should let Imbus explain little better what "intellectual suicide" is and how believing the Bible literally concerning Jesus results in it. Sometimes when folks leave TWI and begin thinking for themsleves and doing some actual Bible study unreconcilable Bible errors or contridictions may become apparant. However, IMO to reject the historical Jesus, or even the Bible in total becasue of a biblical contridiction is to still hold to TWI's and Wierwille's teachings on how the Bible falls apart if there is one single error. It's the old "it's all God Word or it's all a lie". Black or White. Others hit on it bit already. We can form core beliefs on such things as politics, economics,medicine, etc and accpept the text books as authoritive and reliable - not demanding abosolute percection from them. But when it comes to the Bible and we find one real error or contradiction we want to scrap the whole as unreliable and of no authority. The reasoning is inconsistant.

Gee Scott, and here I thought that you were possibly being a bit anal and controling (TWI Style) -- :)-->

Eve having lesbian sex as the origin sin tops my list. Posted by GSG Aparantly God has a loophole to get around that annoying little restriction. He gets humans to do the lying for him. This way God gets off on a technicality and your whole bible does not fall apart.

Yes, it probably does, but commenting/complaining in the thread itself about where it belongs not how to address the situation. Complaining/whining about it in the post itself does no good. If you don't like where a post is located, see that little yellow triangle below the post? Click on it and report the offending post to the admin, if bugs you so much that a post might possibly be in the wrong forum.

Imbus, I also find contradictions in the Bible - just about anyone who has truly studied it has. So what? However, I haven't found anything so "tremendous" that would cause me to to abandon my faith in Jesus Christ. To me it would be unreasonable to expect a complilation of ancient books and letters, written by human beings and then translated from an extinct language into another language not to have some mistakes, errors and contradictions in it. Yet I still believe it to be quite reliable as a whole. The message still gets through. TWI told us that if there was one real contradition the "whole Bible would fall to pieces". Bull corn. Black and white thinking. That comes from the notion that every word was dictated directly by God, a doctrine which I do not espouse. I think that the writers (of the New Testament and Gospels in particular) set about to write an honest and accurate accounting of the life of Jesus based upon their own personal knowledge and experience and possibly from accounts they got from others who were eye- witnesses. They did the best they could and it was quite good considering they didn't write anything until about 40 or more years after Jesus departed. But, I cannot imagine why it would be "intellectual suicide" to take the account of Jesus literally. I was tested with an IQ of 147 quite some time ago - and I take the account of Jesus literally - his ministry, death, ressurection, etc - and I don't see where my IQ has dropped or died. Intellect is great and I like it, but it ain't everything. Faith transcends intellect. BTW, to answer the question, I believe that the Jesus of the Bible was the only begotten son of God, that he died on the cross and three days later, rose from the dead. And see, my brain is still working - or so I have been told.

What are "dubs" ?

What are "dubs" ?

TWI's "manifestations" are what the rest of Charasmatic Chrstianity calls the "gifts of the spirit." ("manifestation" is from 1Cor12:7) The worship manifestations are: Speaking in tongues, Intepretation of tongues, and Prophecy - (not to be confused with what a prophet does in fortelling the future) A required part of every Way "beleivers meetings" was to have one or two folks speak in tongues and interpret and have someone "prophecy". The interprtation and prophecy were considered to be a message from God to the folks present - but was usually just paraphrased scripture mixed with wayspeak - the message could be in the first person like "I am your God and Father. What you give you will multiplied back to you"(Give more money) or in the in the third person like: "God has said "thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treads the corn" (Give more money). It was never predictive nor was it personal to any specific individual like the relatively new practice of personal prophecy in some charismatic churches.

TWI's "manifestations" are what the rest of Charasmatic Chrstianity calls the "gifts of the spirit." ("manifestation" is from 1Cor12:7) The worship manifestations are: Speaking in tongues, Intepretation of tongues, and Prophecy - (not to be confused with what a prophet does in fortelling the future) A required part of every Way "beleivers meetings" was to have one or two folks speak in tongues and interpret and have someone "prophecy". The interprtation and prophecy were considered to be a message from God to the folks present - but was usually just paraphrased scripture mixed with wayspeak - the message could be in the first person like "I am your God and Father. What you give you will multiplied back to you"(Give more money) or in the in the third person like: "God has said "thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treads the corn" (Give more money). It was never predictive nor was it personal to any specific individual like the relatively new practice of personal prophecy in some charismatic churches.

I will expound on some of the definitions/explanations. The Teacher, Father in the Word. Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille is also known in the ex-way community as "The Huckster", "Vee Pee", "Doc Vic" and "Herr Doktor" among a few others. Many refuse to use Dr. and instead call him Mr. Wierwille" because his P.H.D came from an unaccredited Diploma mill. MOGFODAT: Sometimes changed to "MOGFART". moglet: Also known as "mini-mogs" charity-work: TWI's Scriptural reference for lack of charity. Matt 14:7(First half only) "For ye have the poor with you always..." Jesus Christ: But never "Jesus" without "Christ" attached. TWI taught that there is this deceiving demon/devil spirit named Jesus so if you say "Jesus" without saying Christ you are refering to a devil. Praying to "Jesus" is even worse. Anyone who prays to "Jesus" is praying to a devil - idolotry for sure. One might even get "possessed" this way. Way Corps: TWI's "elite" leadership. Referred to by some as "Way Corpse." Way Corps were privy to "advanced teachings" and special meetings that others were not. Nearly all of TWI's "leaders" and Clergy were graduates of the "Way Corps" training program. Waybrain: A mindset that usually sees most everything in either black or white. A Waybrain attemts to interpret the universe in terms used in PFAL or in TWI tradition. A person with waybrain is seldom wrong about anything - even things they are not educated in. A person with Waybrain will seldom use words/terms like, create, hope, good luck, sweet dreams, or problem. Folks with Waybrain typically demand and expect perfection from others while accepting mediocrity in themsleves (Especially true of many Way leaders)

I will expound on some of the definitions/explanations. The Teacher, Father in the Word. Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille is also known in the ex-way community as "The Huckster", "Vee Pee", "Doc Vic" and "Herr Doktor" among a few others. Many refuse to use Dr. and instead call him Mr. Wierwille" because his P.H.D came from an unaccredited Diploma mill. MOGFODAT: Sometimes changed to "MOGFART". moglet: Also known as "mini-mogs" charity-work: TWI's Scriptural reference for lack of charity. Matt 14:7(First half only) "For ye have the poor with you always..." Jesus Christ: But never "Jesus" without "Christ" attached. TWI taught that there is this deceiving demon/devil spirit named Jesus so if you say "Jesus" without saying Christ you are refering to a devil. Praying to "Jesus" is even worse. Anyone who prays to "Jesus" is praying to a devil - idolotry for sure. One might even get "possessed" this way. Way Corps: TWI's "elite" leadership. Referred to by some as "Way Corpse." Way Corps were privy to "advanced teachings" and special meetings that others were not. Nearly all of TWI's "leaders" and Clergy were graduates of the "Way Corps" training program. Waybrain: A mindset that usually sees most everything in either black or white. A Waybrain attemts to interpret the universe in terms used in PFAL or in TWI tradition. A person with waybrain is seldom wrong about anything - even things they are not educated in. A person with Waybrain will seldom use words/terms like, create, hope, good luck, sweet dreams, or problem. Folks with Waybrain typically demand and expect perfection from others while accepting mediocrity in themsleves (Especially true of many Way leaders)

Raf, I think that lying is ok and even encouraged in some groups (cults) -- if it protects the group's facade of credibility.

Refiner, Welcome to GS. We seldom have anyone here that is not ex-Way. It's actually kind of nice though. Comming from JW, you may have quite a bit in common with many of us. I read the other thread. Amazing response - 73 posts in just a few hours. Anyway, as far as the timelines go. I heard or read somewhere a long time ago, that these times and dates were caclulated by using measurements from one of the Egyptian pyramids. Scripture was then interpreted and forced to fit within these precalculated dates. Is this correct or close to correct?

The immitating was going on for a long time. Most of us did it at some level or another, like everytime we said "bless you" or "that's not avaliable." Paul Wrote: VPW taught us that followers =immitators from the Greek "mimetes." Paul was an apostle. VPW was presumed to be an apostle so folks began "immitating" VPW. Not in the context of the scripures so much as in personal manerisms and quirks. Witness Donnie Fugit whose mimickery of VPW was legend. But in fairness, Donnie did not immitate VPW meanness. He was a good guy from what I have been told by those that knew him well. But others, like LCM, took it to another level, even immitating VPW's faults. It's the Word you know - Immitate the Man Of God (warts and all). I didn't write the book people. If you don't like it, take it up with the author. Some folks wore what the MOG wore, ate what MOG ate, drank what the MOG drank, cussed like the MOG cussed, smoked what the MOG smoked, ad infinitum/nauseum. Thus the emmergence of the Mini Mogs - little VPW or LCM clone wannabes - who possibly thought that Doc Vic's or LCM's "spirituality" could be obtained by immition or mimickery. The problem, of course, was that so many people immitated the wrong things. Paul further explained: I wonder if Jesus wore leisure suits, had a curly perm, or if he got snot-slinging, vein-popping, spittle-spewing mad if the disciples didn't string the chairs properly or if the people didn't stand up fast enough when he entered the room.

I left for several reasons: 1. Incomplete anwers or dodges on doctrinal questions. 2. Advancing legalism. 3. A thrust towards obedience and service to leaders instead of leaders serving those they led. 4. Meddling of leaders into the private lives of folks where they had no business meddling. 5. An advancing caste system - but basically the split bewtween Corps and non-Corps. 6. Leadership (Corps Men/Reverends) constantly making sexual advances towards my girlfriend/fiance. This was in 82 - TWI-1

Catcup, I just can't imagine who you are talking about. But unfortunately, there are some here who lack the ability to know the difference between an attack and a challenge - or the difference between an honest question and a rhetorical one that is an attack itself, laden with contempt and judgement. Folks that present their own misguided perceptions as "the truth" while they themselves hypocritically and slyly attack and reprove those that they errantly perceive as rude and impolite "attackers".

[oh and goey--I remember hearing over 100,000 while I was a WOW in Northern Ireland. (as opposed to 30,000) As I understand it, the 100,000 figure was an estimate of how many folks took PFAL over the years - not how many faithful ABSing followers TWI had at any given time. Not everyone that took the class "followed" TWI. There were lots of drop outs - even early on. The 30,000 figure represents the peak number of faithful followers at any given time. I am guessing that TWI peaked right before Craig took over and the decline began shortly aftewards. Just guessing. On another note: Looks like Wonder1 started this thread and then tucked tail and ran after folks challenged his/her opening post.

Posted by Long Gone: I have to mostly agree with Long Gone on this. Which group is more Christian or less Christian will have very little or no weight at all with the Court. The Court will make it's decisions based on it's interprepratation of the revelant laws and upon previous rulings by other courts. A good case ruling in regards to Trademarks and religion at can be found HERE I seriously doubt that the Court will get inlvolved in Biblical/Christian doctrinal differences as who is more Christian, but TWI's practices may be fair game in certan areas in regards to credibility. However, in determining whether "The Way" is a generic term vs a descriptive one, the Court will look at how "religious adherants use or understand the phrase [The Way] as a unit" -- or how the (Te-Ta-Ma Truth Foundation — Family Of Uri, Inc NC.,v. World Church of the Creator.) So religous ideas may be discussed in the context of how folks may understand the meaning of a particular religious term. TWI's Trademark for "The Way" is "incontestable" meaning it has been registered for over 5 years and they filed a 1065 affdavit. This gives them an advantage. In order to have an incontestable trademark canceled the other party will have to prove one of several things. (According to the Lanham Act) 1. Pre-existing rights in the mark. - Can one argue that all Christians have the right to use "The Way"? VPW seemd to think so based on the quote that WhiteDove posted. Did VPW's written comment give folks the right to use it. Do they havethe right anyway as a religious belief? 2. The mark has become generic or was generic at the outset. -- "A generic term is one that that refers to the genus of which the particular product is a species.” (469 U.S. at 194.) - Is the phrase, The Way, "descriptive" of TWI products (I dont't think so) or does "The Way" refer to a genus of products/services of which TWI's are but a species? Or neither? 3. The mark is functional. - "functional means that 'the exclusive use of which would put competitors at a significant non-reputation-related disadvantage". TWI unfortunately sees other Christian groups as a competitors and as a threat to their revenue. They certainly cannot argue their "reptutation" is a real issue. The question here then is, does TWI's exclusive use of "The Way" unfairly limit or prevent others in the same kind of business? 4. The mark has become abandoned. - "The Way" changed it's name to "The Way International" which could "possibly" be construed as abandonment of "The Way" mark - at least for the purpose of the identification of the organization which IMO would be to indentify the source of it's goods and services. What is the source? - "The Way" or "The Way International Inc"? -- TWI thought there was a need to make a distinction. Maybe there is an arguement here. 5. Registration of a mark was obtained through fraud. ( Very hard to prove - but possible) 6. A mark is violative of (a), (b) and/or © of §1052 ....(a) The mark is immoral, deceptive, scandalous, disparaging or identifies a place other than the place of origin for wine or spirits. - I see a posibiility here, but it is a real long shot. Posibbly it could be argued considering TWI's polcies, practives and scandalous behavior, that TWI's use of "The Way" is deceptive, and/or is disparaging to those that religioulsly believe the "The Way" is a phrase that is reflective of the teachings of Jesus. ...(b) The mark compromises flags, insignias etc. of governmental entities. ) Not relevant ...© The mark is a name, portrait or signature of a living person or, during his widow's lifetime, a portrait of a deceased President. Hmmm... 7. A mark is used with the permission of the registrant in a way which misrepresents the source of goods and/or services. - Not revelant 8. The registrant lost control of or failed to properly use a certification mark. ("The Way" is not a certification mark.) Not relevant Hmmm. 6© above is interesting. "The Way" is a name for Jesus, who millions of Christians believe is alive. Would anyone dare go down this road? Would the Court even entertain this argument? Kinda of doubt it. Anyway, the Lanham act not withstanding, the Courts have actually looked at a more things than just what is contained in the Lanham Act in regards to trademark cancellation, but these are the primary ones. There are greater laws - like those that protect freedom of speech and freedom of religion that may apply. Personally, I do not think that the Lanham act had religion in mind when it was drafted.

I agree.