Goey

MJ, And that is what is know as "evil" And it was intentionally done at the top. It has nothing at all to do with "God working in mysterious ways". - It has to do with folks parading as Christian leaders while they spit in Gods face and destroy his people for their own gain. Where have I ever said that people don't make choices and aren't responsible for those choices? What I won't do though is whitewash the obvious evil in TWI as just bad choices. Pointing out obvioulsy evil actions of those who knowingly and willingly twist the Word of God for personal gain or "for the ministry" is not "judgement". What bible are using ? There's that "blame" word again. It usually goes aong with "judgement" and "bitterness." You mistakenly see holding TWI and it leaders accountable for their actions as "blame" and "judgement". It is not unusual for some misguided folks to misrepresent the exposing of abuse and evil as "blame" and "judgement". GS does a good job of educating folks about the harm and abuse that was intentioally dished out in TWI. However, your form of "education" sees speaking out against and exposing the abuse and evil in TWI as as "blame" and "judgment". Then you label folks that disagree with your "educated" misrepresentations as being ignorant. I'll kindly pass on your form of education. Poor Craig ... sniff, sniff. Now who shall we "blame" for that?

Shaz, Interesting theory. I think that the BOD may be seeing that little 25 million investment nestegg dwindle. (I think the investments make up about 25 million) As long as ABS levels are sufficient, they can keep the status quo and no have to touch the investments. But if ABS levels drop to a point that they cannot cover extra expenses such as lawsuit settlements and attorney fees, along with their fixed expenses, then they will have either tap in to the investments, or do something else in order the keep the investments at current levels. What could they do? 1. Sell off unneeded assets like Gunnison, other proprties, etc. 2. Demand more ABS from current followers. 3. Attract new followers and their associated ABS They could possibly do a combination if these. Hypothetically - if the Peelers were to win their suit that could be a big blow to TWI's pocketbook, not only in the initial cash loss, but in the fact that it would open the door up for other to get simlar awards, since the Peelers are not uniquie in what happened to them. There could be a domino effect. My theory is that the BOD could be seeing the writing on the wall and seeing their little nest egg disolve away. Either in assets or in cash investments. In the event of a severe enough ABS short fall where costs and expenses could not be covered by ABS plus interest on investments - they will have to either tap into the investment principle or sell off assets. Fixed assets represent an expense to maintain so it would be more likely that assets will be sold off first - they did this before with Emporia and the Indiana campus. It will be interesting to see what changes the BOD may make (if any) in the future. It would not surprise me at all if they began to make changes that will protect their investment nest egg that affords them their current lifestyles. Of course I am projecting here, but it it seems to me the best way to protect the investments and assets would be to try and get more followers to foot the bills. So it would also not supprise me if we see TWI do more things and makes some changes to attract more followers. On another note: After the IRS made it secret deal with Scientology, and the deal was exposed, I am not so sure that TWI has too much to fear there. Goey

I think giving is great. I highly reccomned it. The problem I have is with the term "tithe" being used in the context of the NT Church. Tithe is from the Hebrew "ma`aser" which literally means "tenth" or tenth part. Tithes are fist mentioned in Genesis 14:20 before the Law. This was before the Law was given. The next time tithes are mentioned is in Leviticus Chapter 27. Tithes were always given to priests. Under the Law tithes were given to the Levite priests who were responsible for distributing the tithes or using them as designated. The priests kept to themselves a "heave offering" of a tenth part of the tithes - usually the right forleg of an animal or a portion of the crops, etc. The Levites were the priests and had received no land when it was divided up. Their "inheritance" was their portion of the tithes.

MJ, Merely Guessing? So what then MJ-- are folks just supposed to accept it, and burry their heads in the sand like you do? If I see a man go in a bank, shoot a guard, and take money from the teller, am I "merely guessing" that he robbed the bank? When I see him speed away am I "merely guessing" that he doesn't want to get caught. Am I "thinking evil" if I call this man a robber and warn others about him? Maybe I should I keep my mouth shut and rationalize that God works in ways I don't understand? M&A, breaking up families,lock box, tattle-taling, coercing abortion, etc all came from the higher ups. You, like a few others here, intentionally or ignorantly missapply the biblical term of "thinking evil" to try to paint others as "thinking evil" when they speak the facts and truth about TWI and its leaders. You don't know what "thinking evil" is. Seems you have bought TWI's line on that. "Thinking evil" is to be suspicious of others when there is no cause for suspicion. "Thinking evil" harbors suspicion with out any evidence or proof. It is not "thinking evil" to conclude that leaders lied, coerced and manipulated when the evidence is blinding. There is plenty of evidence.

And what about the 10th manifestation of the spirit? "Spiritual Anger"

Of the 34 GSer's who participated in this poll 21 knew of no one that they thought would return to TWI under any circumstances. However, the 12 others that voted knew of at least 35 people that they believed would return to TWI under the right cirmunstances. 34 voted and these 34 knew a total of 35 folks that they believed would return to TWI under the right cicumstances. The ratio is close to 1:1. So we could possibly project then, that if 100 people here voted they would know appromixately 100 people that might go back to TWI. Let's asseume that TWI actually had 25,000 folks at one time. Let's also assume there there are only 5,000 left. If only 20 percent of those that left or got kicked out returned then that would be 4,000 people. Assuming an average income of only 20,000 per year that come to 3,000 in ABS per person per year. That about 12 million in ABS. Why doesn't TWI change? Is it more than just the money?

"Wierwille" is definitely French. It means something like "city of dams" or "city of weirs" Looking at some old Huguenot records I found the name "de Vierville" listed. This Huguenot family fled the same area of France where Vierville is located in about 1685 - after the Edict of Fontainbleu which restarted persecution againstthe Huguenots. While this partucilar family fled to Ireland, it is plausible that other "de VierVilles" fled elsewhere. The Huguenots that fled to Prussia (Germany) fled after the 1685 Edict of Fontainblue which is the same time that the "de Viervilles fled to Ireland. Also, the area where Vierville France is located became predominatly Protestant(Hugeunots) during the 16th and 17th centuries. So IMO, it is quite plausible that Wierwille does have roots that go back to the Huguenots and to Vierville France. So what? Why would VPW take particular pride in that when his teachings rejected the Calvinism that his Hugeunot ancestors were perscuted for?

If this is the best he can persuade, I'm unimpressed. I agree with you here Oldies. Here DIck's use of faulty reasonining based on his theological bias rears it's ugly head. But this is his worse not his best. Other parts of his thesis are actually quite good.

Oldies, So if someone tells you that your face is dirty, what do you do? Look at their face and take comfort in the fact that it is also dirty? Their dirty face does not make yours clean. The fact that trinitarians also use fallacious logic based upon a preconceived theology does nothing to get Wierwille's faulty heremenutics and errant "laws" off the hook.

Objectively proved in writing? only Pat knows what he has on hand, and he would be wise to remain silent about that here. Radar had a good suggestion. If you can't get a copy of a letter like DamitJanit mentioned, then subpoena the "guidance to limb records". Subpoena every damn thing TWI has. Find former staff willing to to provide affidavits. It shouldn't be that difficult. Thought it may be expensive. But do you guys believe that all innies will lie (under oath) to protect "the ministry"?. You'd be surprised how the truth can come out when folks are under oath and confronted with contrary evidence. If it's all you've got then it's all you've got. Got to at least take the shot.

Raf, DamitJanet Posted a while back: I think witnesses could be called and letters could be produced if TWI denied it. In my mind announcing (even quietly) that the bookstore is now open to the public stronglt implies that it was not previously open. Add to that the fact that TWI's website never mentions that it sells anything, offers no catalog of products, and the only means of contact is a P.O box for non-specific "information" - and it seems pretty clear that TWI was not attempting to sell anything via its website. If it is that critical to the cases, TWI bookstore staff could made to testify under oath as to whether or not TWI's policy was to only sell books to their faithful.

Hey, Something is missing in this movie. We got lots of villains but no hero - We need a hero! (And a story line) Now, who could possibly save TWI from the clutches of its evil villains ? Hmmmm? let me see ...... I have an idea ! Naw .........

Of course he was Steve. And I was taking Pat's humor as a queue to explain how inacurate a poll such as is this is.

Pat, that's possible, but not likely. However there would be some redundancy in a poll such as this. If the folks responding followed the suggested guidelines, then they would not have considered anyone here that was commonly known to everyone. But, the redundancy factor would definitely increase as the number of people polled increased becasue the chances of some folks knowing the same person would be greater. Also if a person was refering to him/herself others might also consider them as well in how they voted, creating even more redundancy. This is not meant to be anally accurate Pat, Only taking a pulse. OK ?

A reminder, This poll is about whether or not we may know some folks who would return to TWI for whatever reasons. It is not about if we think it is a good idea or not.

So far, out of 20 responses, each person knows an average of 1.25 people that would possibly return to TWI under the right conditions. Granted the responses are from ex-TWI folks that frequent GS cafe and may not be representative of ex-TWI as a whole, yet I wonder if the reponse would be similar from all ex-TWI folks? How dedicated are offshooters to their offshoots? Is TWI still the mothership in many folks eyes - just blown off course? I am not taking about GSers but about ex-TWI folks as a whole. If we presume that the response would be similar for all ex-TWI then we could postulate that TWI could possibly gain several thousand folks back by making certain changes. Hmmm...

No, not as it is today, as it might be if certain changes were made. Like being nicer, less demanding, apologizing for being buttheads, etc, - But it would still be TWI under the same basic management with the same basic core beliefs - no trinity, manifestations, home fellowships, etc ...

If you stayed you would eventually pay.

OM, This poll does not deal with the chances of those circumstances happening. Also, the circunstances are not the same for everyone. Some may want a change in certain doctines, others may just want an apology and an invitation. Many who were M&A'd did not really want to leave. So who really knows what those conditions might be? However, you may be surprised at what changes a group like TWI can make when the coffers start to dry up and things get desperate.

WaywardWafer, So far, half of the folks here know at least one person that would return to TWI under the right circumstances. Actually, 12 folks responded so far and these 12 know of at least 13 folks that they think would return to TWI under the right conditions. Does that tell us anything about ex-wafers as a whole? It does highly suggest that there are quite a few folks out there that *WOULD* return to TWI under the right conditions.

UH, We did this quite a while back. Interestingly many folks picked some of the samne actors as you did. Hopkins as VPW was my choice also. I would have cast William H. Macy as Howard Allen though. Some folks picked Grammar as LCM, probably becasue of his big forehead, but I am not sure that Grammar could pull off that role. I liked Tom Hanks for LCM. He has a big forehead and is more versatile. I wonder how he would look in tights? Rosie? Glen Close with some extra pounds and some "thigh craters" might be a fair choice for the old hag. Sharon Stone can play the caniving bitch part as good as anyone, but she may be a bit too young and sexy for the part. Makeup can fix that though. It wouldn't matter too much who played Donna, It would just be a minor bit part anyway.

Ok Roy, Why don't you tell everyone about your personal sex life. Give the details. Include your fantasies. No need to keep that hidden from the kids or your friends. -->

Other than folks here at GS Cafe, how many people do you personally know that would return to TWI under the right circumstances. Please Include yourself.

Absolutely it is. TWI makes no changes unless ordered by their overseers, namely their attorneys. Come now Pat. This is awfully lofty thinking. I'll give you "possible" or maybe even "likely" but not "absoultely". You presume that your lawsuits and those of TWIM are the only possible reasons that TWI would make this change. Not so. Without having been there, you are still speculating, just like everyone else. Also, I seriously doubt that Rosie/BOD take orders from their attorneys. Advise - maybe. Orders - Never.

Roy, If I told you what I hide in my life, then it would no longer be hidden. Goey