Goey

Danny if you are refering to an authoritarian clerg=ruled church and eventually clergy ruled nations, I am not so sure. But, since the church pretty much abandoned the purer more ideal ecclesiastical plan that I see in the NT writings, we will never know what could or would have emerged. But I suspect it would have been a much purer and more ideal church than what we have seen over the last 1900 years.

Posted By Oldies: VPW was indeed carnal when he made similar demands of loyalty and obedience. That's why quite a few of his early associates dissapeared. However, from a strictly corporate (business) point of view both VPW and LCM were justified in their demands of loyalty and obedience. The Way International Incorporated as an employer had the right to expect loyalty and obedience from it's paid employees as a condition of employment, just like IBM or any other employer.. The problem with this is that TWI was presented as a ministry of God, not the corporation that is really was and still is.

Correct according to what standard or standards? Tradition? Culture? Scripture? Below is an article to consider: Church Leaders & The Use of Honorific Titles

So what is your honorific title? Doctor Rascal or Reverend Rascal?

Why bother with a doctrinal section? I can think of several reasons. Alan, If you actually participated instead of throwing out Wiereillean one-liners and insults, maybe you could figure out a reason or two.

I hate to sound like Dr Phil, but these are not feelings. Feelings are things like happy, sad, angry, frustrated, confused, etc.. Modern psycology has taught us that you can't argue with a persons 'feelings'. So quite a few folks switch the term 'think' for 'feel' so that no one can legitimately argue with what they say. For example: I feel like Joe Blow is a jerk ..... or I feel like you aren't listening to me ....or I feel like the earth is going to end soon .... ad infinitum... Of course this tact not to be confused with having a "gut feeling" and then acting upon it ( or not). . Many folks equate a gut feeling to "revelation" if it comes to pass, or as a mental thing if it does not ( Gee I must have missed it.) Roy, are saying then that God DID NOT tell you that these things will happen? If so, then where do you suppose these "feelings" come from?

Looks like we have as many reverends here at GS than remain in TWI ..... Let's see now. We have: Reverend Oak Reverend Raf Reverend Oldies Reverend Goey And soon to be Reverend Belle. Come on now, out of the closet you GS reverends ! ..... Who else here is "ordained" in one way or another?

Belle, Get ordained online for free HERE or HERE ( Any Religion) If you want a strictly Christian ordination look HERE. It costs a few bucks and takes about a week, but you do get a bit more that just a Web based certificate from your printer.

Posted By Oldiesman: Are you serious?

Posted by Groucho How True .... They are only "valid" in the sense that they allow the ordained person to perform certain functions regulated by most states. From a spiritual/Christian prospective, I have about as much respect for a TWI ordination as I do one from the Universal Life Church, and that is none at all. Yup, Paul as well as Jesus himself warned against such things as taking on exalted titles. Yet the Christian church has basically ignored these warnings since about the 2nd century when the clergy / laity division was put into practice. Now, most chuches are divided into two separate castes of people, clergy and laity where clergy are the ruling class making all the rules and decisions while the laity relegated to be the followers with little say in church matters. Twi's caste system was even more divisive than most churches. You had non Grads, basic PFAL grads, Intermeduiate Grads, WOW's, Advanced Class Grads, Staff, Way Corps, Clergy ( Reverends) and finally the BOT, each caste having it own set of special privileges. We even advertised which particular class of people we belonged to with our various name tags, so we could, among other things, know who was above or below us in the pecking order and who to pay hommage to or obey. And God forbid that members of different castes were to mingle inappropriately - Like a Way Corps Grad (super spiritual) marrying an Intermediate Grad ( much less spiritual). This would cause the Corps Grad to be "unequally yolked". However, is was pretty much OK if the Way Corps folks bedded down the the lower classes, just don't marry them and be unequally yolked..

Rascal, Camp Gunnison is a not for profit corporation just like TWI. It is not now and never has been "owned" by private individuals. However the way it is operated, it is just as if it were owned by Rosie and the gang as none of the folks who paid for it or maintain it have any say in how it is used. The Way International is not listed or mentioned in the Articles of Incorporation, so Camp Gunnison is technically independant of The Way International, or so it appears on paper. It was incorporated in 1977 with V.P. Wierwille, Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens as the original board of directors. As of 2001, the directors were Rivenbark, Platig & Reynolds. Martindale was previously on the board but was outed in 2001. Filed amendments after 2001 are not accessable on the Colorado Sec Of States office, becasue they have the wrong documents queued for viewing, but my guess is that the Current TWI board is also the current Gunnison board.

I called Gunnison. There are no timeshares for sale. They were unaware of the listing.

Oldies, That letter sounds pretty good on the surface, but LCM's actions belied his words. LCM said: Yet when folks replied with answers along that same line, they were summarily dismissed. Can you say two-faced? One was the face of a humble man of God only interested only in moving God's word, and the other was the face of a sexually depraved, power hungry sociopath, willing to trample on anyone that got in his way.

Oldies, Thanks for clearing that up. Sometimes our recollections seem right at first, but when we really look at them, they aren't what we really think they are, or want them to be.

Let's get your story straight. You said it was a conclusion, and the language you used implied that you made that conclusion at that time, and that you "still" hold to that conclusion. You previously said, "Therefore I concluded ......" in regards to the conversation with you limb coordinator back in '89. So then are you retracting/revising this previous statement?

Posted By Oldiesman: Quote: "I personally spoke with the limb coordinator, June of that year (1989), asking him to stand with Craig. Had he responded something like this, "well Phil, the reason why I am not standing with Craig is, among others, cause he has committed adultery in the past, and doesn't want to change". Had he responded like that, I would have respected his decision! Instead of that, he said that I was carnal, my family was carnal, that the BOT is carnal and worshipping other gods, with no specifics. Gee, what a spiritual guy. Therefore I concluded that sexual misconduct of LCM had little to do with folks leaving, and I still hold to that opinion and haven't heard a whole lot of evidence otherwise." ===================================================== Oldies, how could you have possibly made that conclusion, when according to your previous posts, you had never heard of any sexual misconduct at that time?

Rejoice, While we certainly need leaders (elders, deacons, etc) within the church, I don't see where 'ordination' that give them an honorifc title and sets them up as a ruling clergy class is biblical whatsoever. Biblically, 'ordain' simply means to appoint. However, in order to be recognized by the State to perform legal marriages, a person does need to be "ordained" by some qualified group/religion. This can easily be done via the Web for free at several websites. It of course has no spiritual meaning, but it does allow a person to legaly perform marriages and may even get you a free spot in the hospital parking lot.

Hi Rejoice, I ask the questions: Is ordination (as it commonly practiced) scriptural in the first place? Does the New Testament actually set up a separate class of believers known as 'clergy' and another class known as 'laity'. Below is an article with some good points to consider. Problems with Traditional Ordination PS: This will probably be moved to the Doctrinal Forum.

No, I absolutely do not think it was rude at all. But thanks for asking. Oldiesman has been demonstrating his lack of regard for experiences of others for several years now. If you participated in these kind of threads more often, maybe you wouldn't think what I said was so rude. Just calling it how I see it.

If it didn't happen to Oldies, then it didn't happen at all. Just ask him.

Oldies, I think you missed Oaks point. I don't think he was saying that TWI was a ministry of God and that it was ours, only that Wierwille convinced, [ (mis)led ] us to believe us that it was. Martindale had a hard time convincing lots of folks of much of anything.

Oldies Posted: Of course it works both ways Oldies. No one is asking you to completely discount your own experience, only that you take into account what others experienced at the same time in different places. My personal version of things ended in about late 82. But as early as 79 folks were being raked over the coals for not ABSing enough. I was personally singled out in one meeting of twig coordinators and literally screamed at in front of everyone there by the WC branch leader for not ABSing the minimum for the previous month. When I make my assesment of things after '83, I consider my own experiences and the combined experiences of those who remained in TWI past that, yours included. Also I have two brothers that remained in until the loyalty letter to draw from. However, your experience, as your relate it, is only one of very many, and it sticks out like a sore thumb in the whole scope of things. In considering it, I like to apply one of VPWs keys . When lots of clear verses say one thing, and one sits there like a sore thumb and seems to say another, the witness of the many verses wins out. The contrdictory verse , could be a mistranslation, added by the translators, or even a forgery. So my assesment is that your experience was kind of an exception/anomoly and not representative of TWI as a whole, especially considering the testimony of others that were in a better position to know what was really going than you were. Someone once told me: If you are in a room with 100 of your peers and 99 say the light is blue but you say the light is red. The light is probably blue.

So, what's your point? Are you saying that defining terms is not necessary? Or that it shouldnt be done 'cause someone might sound like VPW? ..... Do you have a point? ....... What?

Posted by WTH: "I disagree with the poster who said that sos is related to sozo and/or zoe. The word sos is not related just by looking into how these words are being translated." What I posted was as follows: "...Sozo comes instead from the primary Greek "sos" a contraction for the obsolete obsolete saoz, "safe" ..." This comes directly from Strong's as has already been pointed out. What WTH did was fail to actually look up sozo and read what Strong's had to say. He instead went straight to "sos" and in a sense was correct about the his definitions. Only it was the wrong "sos". This is partly my fault for not referencing Strongs or elaborating on the "sos" from Strongs # 4982. So, not looking up Strong's first on sozo combined with possibly not understaning the Greek alphabet, WTH looked up the Greek sos ... instead of the Greek soô a rare epic verb for sôzô . Both sos and soô would be transliterated "sos" by Strong's which is kind of confusing. So WTH, look up instead "sos" as in soô and you will see that "sos" from Strongs 4892 is indeed related to "sozo" and to "soter". However, I never said that either was related to zoe. That was VPW's errant claim. Again, I should have elaborated and possibly then WTH may not have made his mistake. My apologies. Hint: Cick on underlined words for definitions.

Alan, your hero, Wierwille, was a master at "dickying" around with words. Why the protest? Isn't that kind of hipocritical of you? You said: "We know what is meant by salvation and eternal life" (emphasis mine) Who is "we"? It is rather obvious that you don't have even the slightest clue concerning basic soteriology and the major differences among the various groups and churches. To try to portray those who correct or point out obvious errors that VPW made as an "I hate Wierwille attitude" is silly and ignorant. It would seem to me that if you were actually interested in truth, good doctrine, etc, that you want to know about any errors.he may have made.