Goey

Well, Belle ..... It seems that CK just wanted to dump his beliefs here, stating that he "thinks no evil" while implying that most of us at GS do. In CK's world, It is "thinking evil" (unloving) to tell the truth about VPW, Wiereille, Geer, et al. It is more loving to ignore it, or close your eyes to the facts, than it is to expose it in an effort to allow folks to make some sense of their TWI experience. In a broader sense, CK's doctrine, if applied throughout the whole Christian church, would allow and promote abuse of all kinds to run rampant and unchecked. Here are a few verses that may apply here..... Amo 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. Amos says hate the evil, love the good and establish judgment. CK says close your eyes to the evil. Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied [him]? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil [is] good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where [is] the God of judgment? The prophet was reproving the priests for closing thier eyes to evil and even calling it good, they had abandoned judgment. ...... Just like these priests, CK ignores and closes his eyes to evil. Says they VPW, LCM, Geer, et al ..were "doing the best that they could." Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment. Isaiah was chiding them because they didn't want to hear the truth. No one was calling for judgment against evil. They has closed their eyes. Sin was rampant ( see the context) and nothing was being done to redress greiviences, ei, "judgment is turned away". This is what CK would have us do , turn away .... the scripture says this displeases God. In a nutshell, CK's doctrine is itself evil, non scriptural, and it displeases God. Below is a link to a Commentary on Isaiah 59 by Mathhew Henry. Isaiah 59 - Matthew Henry Commentary

Last night after hanging with a few brain surgeon buddies.... no wait, that was last week. It was after my alien abductee support group meeting (and a couple of bowls of chili and onions), so it must have been after the poker game with my my astronaut friends .... Anyway, I had few beers and fell asleep in my chair after speed-reading my PFAL book - for the millionth time. In a dream( vision?) I saw Jesus in the clouds with a PFAL book in his right hand. VPW was on his right side and Mike was on his left. He was standing on what appeared to be a glowing stack of Way Magazines supported by columns of SNS Tapes. Jesus then spoke to me and said "Pay no attention. It's the chili." (BTW he was wearing faded Wrangler jeans, and a University of Texas T- shirt. )

. . The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good. ( Proverbs 15:3)

Not really CK. You haven discussed much at all. Discussion implies a two-way dialog. A give and take. All you have really done is dumped your belief and regirgitated a few verses of scripture. That is not discussion. This is a doctrinal discussion so you may want to offer a thoughtful analysis of what you are putting forth. That takes more than an "I believe X to be true", and then dumping a verse of scripture. For example, you may want explain WHY you believe that "thinking evil" applies to VPW, Geer and LCM. You may want to provide examples of what it is to think evil. You may want to offer scripture support and analysis to support your position. Johnnie Jump-Up theology doesn't gennerally work here.

Ok Roy, I see what you are saying. It seems then that you are giving a new definition of who the dead in Christ are in I Thessalonians, as well as those who Paul referred to as "we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord" You are defining "the dead in Christ" not as Christians who have fallen asleep (died) as Paul puts it but rather as folks before Christ came. You are then defining "we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord" not as only those Christians who are physically alive at his comming, but with them you also include Christians that have physically died. Roy your definition of who the dead in Christ are does not flow with the context of 1 Thessalonians, niether does your definition of the alive in Christ. Have you cast the Bible aside in favor of your own prophecies?

outintexas, (me too -- out in Texas that is) This is not where their TWI's Corporate Charter is. That is in Ohio. TWI is an Ohio corporation. Most states require any corporation doing business there to file an annual report with that state. It just happens that the Sate of Arizona also requires a financial statement for a corporation to maintain a presence there. My bet is that TWI absolutey hates having to provide financial details that are open to the public.

Possibly. .... However, TWI is a legally set up as a charitable organization and as such can donate money to any charity it wants. It would have been a simple process to set up a charitable fund for Mrs Wierweille. It's not like they didn't have the funds to do that. If they could legally provide housing and meals for her prior to her illness then what would prevent them for doing it aftwards? They, like the Pharisees said "it is Corban" and freed themselves of any obligation. Plain and simple.

Belle, I could be wrong don't think ABS would be classified as accounts receivable. ABS would be considered donations. Accounts receivable would be money actually owed to TWI that they have not yet received. The 7 percent growth is really not too shabby considering TWI's downsizing. Most of TWI's investments are in safe short term insruments which won't return anything like 14 percent- probably more on the lines of 3- 5 percent. $19,413,000 at 5 percent would yield only about $970,000 in interest income Now, if we have 3000 folks with an average income of $25,000 each paying 10 percent ABS, that comes to about 7.5 million in ABS ( plus interest that it earns). If 2000 had an average income of only $15,000 it still comes to 3 million in ABS. So we can see how important ABS is to TWI maintaining their fund balance.

Roy, Here is what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians. 1Th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. In verse 16, we have the term term "dead in Christ" which I take to means those Christians that have died. In your # 7 you say "....and the first sign will be all that were not dead in Christ or alive in Christ " ..... then you explain this with "all mankind that were not part of the dead in Christ from Adam to the last of mankind that die before Christ won over death and the alive in Christ all that received the seed of Christ in them. So then, I if am getting this right, you are using the term "not dead in christ" to mean those who died without Christ, before he came. And you are using the term "alive in christ" to mean those who have died that received the seed of Christ in them. Here is my problem. The Bible uses the term "dead in Christ" to refer to those who have died that received the seed of Christ, yet you use the term "alive in Christ" to refer to those same people. Do you see how this may be confusing ? You used the term "not dead in Christ" to refer to those who died without Christ, where a natural reading would take "not dead in Christ" to mean alive in Christ ( if something is "not dead" then it is alive) when what you are really trying to say is those who died without Christ. Do you see how this may also be confusing? Let me paraphrase # 7 for you and see if this is what you were trying to convey: 7. Then the signs of the great day of judgement must begin and the first sign will be that all those who died without Christ before He defeated death along with all those who died in Christ will rise from the dead .... Roy is this what you mean?

Mike Posted: That's not logic at all Mike. Not even logical arguments at all. Those are simply conditional statements. Opinions in the form of conditional statements that you are attempting to portray as "logic . Mikean Logic. Flawed Logic.

Mike, Stop the banter and rhetoric will you and just get to teaching PFAL .... ok ?

Roy, can you please rephrase the statements above? It may be me, but # 7 doesn't seem to make much sense. This part in particular....... "...all that were not dead in Christ or alive in Christ will get up from the dead to walk in the form of fleshy life with a dead spirit ....." What is the difference between all that were not dead in Christ and all that were alive in Christ? To be "not dead" is to be alive -- isn't it. And why would the alive or the "not dead" need to get up from the dead? Makes little sense. Roy, it could be a grammar thing, and I don't mean to riduicule you. But when you are claiming that Jesus gave you these words, then you are claiming this to be God's Word in a sense. Therefore, I would expect you to try to get the grammar at least minimally correct to the point were the correct and intended meaning is properly conveyed. Moses had Aaron to speak for him . Do you have anyone that could help you with this? As far as 18 and 19 go . Can you explain dead spirit a bit more. I am particularly interested in any Bible references that support the idea that the spirit is born dead.

I didn't include the liabilities in my initial post. The liabilities are a little less than 2,000,000 and are not detailed. Click on the link I provided in the first post and go to 2005 to see the complete report.

Yup, it's for real -- in so much as this is the official statement that TWI filed with the state of Arizona. Now, whether or not it accurately reflects TWI's financial condition is a matter of specualtion -------------------- Chas, Thanks for the good info. What do you suppose accounts for the huge increase in the medical fund from 2001 to 2005 ? It doesn't seem that the staff has grown that much.

Posted by doojable: The answer is easy. While this may be forum for discussion for most folks, this is Mike's classroom and launching pad for his "message". As the teacher, he plays by his own rules. Expect any more than that and you will be dissapointed.

TWI'.s total assets have only increased by about 7 percent since 2001. Interestingly though, it's medical fund has increased by over 500 percent. This may show where a lot of the money is really going. I doub't that anyone other than a few selected staff and the BOT can use the money in the "Medical Fund". And it seems that none of this money (all from ABS) was available for Mrs. Wierwille, even thought there was about 7 million in there at the time she was moved to the nursing home.

Mike Posted: "If PFAL is not God-breathed, then what I say falls to pieces. But if it is, then think on this. How could any outside testimony/evidence verify it? If it's of God then nothing can be looked to that's bigger than it. " Later Mike posts: "When we become the first batch grads to LITERALLY do what he told us to do at the end of his life down to the most minute detail, and take up the meek mastery of written PFAL, then we will see that PFAL is of God." How would you know Mike? You haven't done it yourself. You have drawn a conclusion without doing exactly what you say must be done in order to reach that conclusion. Your conclusion is irrational. You have not taken up "the meek mastery of PFAL". You have instead taken up the not so meek mastery of irrational thought. The only parts of PFAL you have taken up to master are the ones you have irrationally misconstrued and foisted unintended meanings upon. Your words "fall to pieces" not becasue PFAL is not God-breathed, but because they are contridictory, irrational and show no sembalance of sound reasoning.

The Way International Balance Sheet August 31, 2005 Assets Current Assets Cash ............................................................................ 789,127.82 Short Term Investments ......................................... 19,413,578.69 Other Investments ....................................................1,540,460.97 Accounts Receivable......................................................109,455.00 Accrued Interest Receivable...........................................151,859.30 Inventories................................................................ 1,138,205.00 Prepaid Expense............................................................. 43,346.46 Total Current Assets...................................... 23,186,037.04 Notes Receivable...................................................................... 0.00 Medical Fund.............................................................. 8,200,706.70 Fixed Assets.............................................................19,138,607.85 TOTAL ASSETS........................................ 50,525,351.39 ( From TWI Anual Report Filing with the Arizona Corporation Commission ) Not much change since 2004.

After being clearly shown that "thinketh no evil" does not mean ignoring sin, or not holding folks accountable, or sticking your head in the sand, you still quote this verse as an excuse to let VPW, LCM, and TWI off the hook? ... Now to be consistent in your belief, I don't want to hear any negative talk about the Pope, Catholics or any of the folks here at the GS cafe (or anyone else for that matter), lest you be found a "respector of persons" and of course also "thinking evil" . Cause everyone is doing the best they can ....right ? Not Just VPW, LCM, TWI. Guess ole Satan is doing the best he can too. Guess this also means there is really no such thing as a false prophet, no deceivers, or wolve's in sheep's clothing. Or if there is, we wouldn't know it because to even think that there might be is to "think evil". And that certainly would not be loving. I guess Paul was unloving and thinking evil whe he warned Timothy about seducers and deceivers. I suppose Jesus was unloving and thinking evil when when he warned folks of the leaven of the Pharisees. Yup, I guess I am thinking evil right now ..... Right CK ? No wait, if you think that I am thinking evil, then you would be thinking evil by thinking that ... can't have that now can we? Hey, I am just doing the best that I can. .... :blink:

Perfectness bugs me too. It seems a dichotomy to speak of pefection in regards to the human condition . CK, Quoting scripture has it's place, but a verse of scripture tossed in, out of it's context, may be hard to understand. So, what do you think this verse means? What does Paul mean by perfectness? -- And how does this verse relate to your opening post? This is a doctrinal discussion isn't it? -- Start discussing then ....

Dead spirit? Dead spirits? Never heard that before.

Loans should be paid back - nothing more.

CK, have you bailed out, of should we wait for a reply from you ?

Fair enough then Mike -- you added the evidence. So now we have: An unsubstantied promise An unconfirmed snow storm Many folks benefited Your testimony Mike, folks "that already want to believe" ??? Where and who are these folks ? But I will concede that the evidence above would give your message some credence to the hypothetical folks that "already want to believe" since these kind of folks (your target audience) require little in the form of credible evidence in order to believe. But does this audience exist? Logic is good Mike. It can be a great help in separating truth from error and fact from fiction. But of course it is not the end all of what is true. Most logic is inductive and can only really show what is likely, and thats really what I am concerned with here Mike here. What is likely or what is not likely. Take Wierwille's promise for example, no one can really prove with logic and reason that it did not happen. Likewise, no one can logically prove that it did happen. So shall we abandon logic and reason? No ....We can use (sound) logic and reason to try to determine if it was likely. Those of us that believe the Bible to be authorative will naturally call upon scriptures from the Bible as some of the premises in our arguments. Mike, even if I didn't believe the Bible and assumed the evidence you gave to be true there is still no way I could conclude that: Therefore PFAL is the Word of God. Why, because the conclusion does not naturally or necessarily follow the evidence. In other words, those things could all be true and PFAL still not the the Word of God. So it's like you said Mike, someone would have to "already want to believe" that PFAL is the Word in order to really believe. This, I imagine, is why you don't use sound logic very often - it just doesn't work to help your cause. And it is also probably why you suggest that we are "too logic oriented". I suggest that logic and faith can co-exist in harmony. And that having faith does not require a dumbing down by abandoning sound logic and reason. Mike, I agree that most of us have things we accept by faith. Not necessarily because we wan't to believe them, but because we are somehow compelled to. These things transcend certain kinds of logic. For example, no one can really deductively prove that God exists, or even that the Bible is the Word of God for that matter. But, pointing out that we accept things by faith doesn't really help your case for PFAL -- or get folks to believe your message. I think there is a big difference in having faith in something and in "already wanting to believe" something and then believe it with less than compelling evidence. IMO, the first strike is the abandonment of sound reasoning in making your case. The second is that the evidence is less than compelling. Think about it Mike. .... For years, many folks here and elsewhere have heard the message that you have presented, yet the best I can tell not one single person anywhere has accepted it - at least not the PFAL is the word of God reissued part. ..... Why? I suggest that since it cannot be proven logically, that there is just nothing compelling about it. It would seem to me that if it were really God's message, that it would be hard not to believe, especially by PFAL fans and those who thought very highly of VPW. But it seems even these folks aren't persuaded or compelled to accept and believe your message. Mike does this tell you anything at all, (except that everyone besides you is blind to the truth) ??

Alan, I believe that's a misquote --Your forgot the "NOT".