Goey

Chris is gone from A I but will go a long way. Kat, Elliot and Taylor remain ... All are quite talented and worthy to carry the AI torch. I think Kat probably has the most raw talent and "star quality". Talyor is goofy, but has a lot of stage presence. Elliot? He is a danged good singer ... Can sing it all. Its a toss up for me. My prediction? Unfortunately, Elliot leaves next.

I suppose it might seem to conflict, if we assume that all hope is the same. This verse should be understood within its context. To remove it from its context makes it difficult. Any person living no matter how good or evil has hope for a better life. Has hope to rectify wrongs. Has hope to change. There is hope for the worst person alive to repent and come to God. But once dead there there is no hope for these things. "Joined to all the living" is explained pretty well by Matthew Henry. He says: " While there is life there is hope. Dum spiro, spero—While I breathe, I hope. It is the privilege of the living that they are joined to the living, in relation, commerce, and conversation, and, while they are so, there is hope. If a man’s condition be, upon any account, bad, there is hope it will be amended. If the heart be full of evil, and madness be in it, yet while there is life there is hope that by the grace of God there may be a blessed change wrought; but after men go to the dead (v. 3) it is too late then; he that is then filthy will be filthy still, for ever filthy. If men be thrown aside as useless, yet, while they are joined to the living, there is hope that they may yet again take root and bear fruit; he that is alive is, or may be, good for something, but he that is dead, as to this world, is not capable of being any further serviceable. Therefore a living dog is better than a dead lion; the meanest beggar alive has that comfort of this world and does that service to it which the greatest prince, when he is dead, is utterly incapable of. (Matthew Henry- Eccleasties)

No Problem What is the context of 1 Thesslaonians? It is is letter and it discusses more than one subject. It does not simply have one particular context does it? There can be a general context and a local context within a writing such as this. There are usually contextual breaks in a writing when the subject changes. I believe that there is a contextual break at verse 13 with the conjunction "de". "Sorrow" is also a question to be considerd. What is one of the most sorrowful things that humans experience? What causes people the most grief? Have you ever lost a loved one? A Parent? -- While a person may indeed grieve for someone who is spiritually asleep, how much more would they grieve for a son or daughter that met a tragic physical death? Consider then, what if that parent believed that the dead son or daughter was gone for eternity? Don't we have many scriptures in other places that tell us how to deal with the spiritually weak. Do any other scriptures use the term "sorrow" in regards to those persons? "Even" means "in the same manner". We will certainly sorrow for our love ones that die. But if (since) we believe that Jesus died and was raised, we should not sorrorrow in the same manner as those who have no hope. We instead usually sorrow for our own loss. Those without hope sorrow no only for thier own loss but also for their dead love ones since they do not have within themselves that same hope. This is not to say that these people are hopeless or going to hell. But rather that in their own hearts, not believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus, they do not have the hope of the ressurection since they know nothing of it , or don't believe it. When is not answered specifically, where seems to be answered in verse 17 among other places. It is a difficult verse. The RSV reads, "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." Precede/Prevent is the Greek phthasômen . Click on it. Plato uses it quite a bit on his writings. You may want to look a some of those. It is one of those words that can have several meanings. However a morphological analysis might be of some help. It is the aortist tense, subjunctive mood, and active voice. "Unto" is the Greek eis ... Click on it also. I think "until" is probably the correct translation. This is as far as I can go today. Gotta go dig up about 300 lbs of potatos and build a sheep pen. Maybe the rest later on.

Many fundamentalists, evengelicals and other Christians equate mysticism with heresy and spiritism ( not the same as spiritualism). Out of ignorance they castigate all forms of mysticism thinking it is somehow evil or devilish. Yet Christianity itself is a mystic religion and many of these same folks that castigate mysticism actually practice it in some form or another. Galatians 2:20 Says: "...I no longer live, but Christ lives in me!..." This is mystical thought. Jesus was a mystic. Paul was a mystic. The OT prophets were mystics. The Bible, especially the new testament, is woven with mystical thought. Is everything in the bible mystical? No, but a good portion of it is. In simplified terms, the typical mystic (if there is such a thing) seeks "oneness" with God. One might also call that "fellowship" (not the TWI version). Different terms, but the same basic idea. To experience God. The very idea of a transformation to become Christlike is mystical. The "renewed mind" is mystical. Practicing the presence of God is mystical. Having a personal relationship with God or Jesus is mystical. What is speaking in tongues if is it is not a mystical practice? (Yet, I have experienced just as much if not more benefit from comtemplative prayer and creative imagery as I have from from speaking in tongues.) While Christian mysticism may share some similarites with eastern mysticism or that of of other religions, they are not one in the same. Mysticism comes im many forms. Even Christian mysticism has diversities. Christian mysticism is not necessarily "new age", as it goes back to the beginning of Christianity. Read Clement, Origin and other early church fathers. Here are a couple of links for those who may want to investigate further. http://www.chrmysticaloutreach.com/pages/1/index.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism http://www.frimmin.com/faith/mysticismintro.html

Clay, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I CAN OR CANNOT HANDLE ! You do not get to decide that for me. You are not my spiritual master ---- oooooh so far from it. -- What arrogance! -- What haughtiness! What ignorance! You do not know what I have looked into, or where I have been in my spiritual journey or what I have experienced. You don't have a clue do you? Yet you have the arrogance and audacity to tell me what I can or cannot handle? How pathetically arrogant ... and spiritually immature. Clay, I am not the "many" . I venture to say that I probably understand more about mysticism than you do, not to blow my own horn, but to get you to realize that when you make presumptions about people in regards to their spiritual spiritual path and ability to comprehend spiritual things -- based upon one particular doctrinal discourse --- you are likely to be wrong.

Rascal posted: Is it because some think that we are angry and hateful and need to just get over it? It is because some folks can't stand to see something or someone they once or still admire raked over the coals or "spoken evil" of ? Is it because some honesty want folks to move beyond the hurt they perceive, while assuming that no long speaking of what happened in TWI is a sign of healing? Could it be something else ?

Todd, The fact that I did not go into a 100 page discourse concerning Chrstian mysticism and its various schools of thought does not mean that I am somehow attempting to "reduce that subject too quickly". I didn't think a comprehensive review of mysticism was necessary considering that mysticism was not the subject of my post only a small part of it. But I think you knew that. Just wanted to dig a little -eh? Go ahead......

Clay, once again you presume that I have not considered the idea. You seem to think that I am a narrow- minded, TWIish literalist. You are dead wrong my friend. Like you are doing now, I went through a somewhat zealous mystic phase quite some time ago. So I know what it is to believe your way as well. After a while I found it wanting in a few areas. In the long run strict mysticism raised more questions than answers. That is MY experience. So in the last 8 years or so, I have gradually espoused a mystic-critical-historical hermeneutic when it come to understanding scripiture. That, and hopefully some added illumination via the Holy Spirit This works well for me and the scripture flow quite wel this way, thank you very much. Where I see a mystic interpretation intended, I go with that. Where I see something literal - I go with that. Sometimes I see overlaps. I have changed my beliefs on a host of things over the last 25 years since I have been out of TWI. My main goal in interpreting scripture is to get to the meaning intended by the writer to the audience that the writer was addressing. I try to remove any personal bias when I approach the scriptures (but some bias is inevetable). What I don't do is go to the scriptures with a purely mystic bias - rejecting all things literal. Or go to the scriptures with a purely literal bias and reject all things figurative or mystic. I don't go to the scriptures with an intentional agenda. To do any of these IMO would be dishonestly handling the scriptures. So please Clay, stop the presumptions and apparantly condescending statements addressed to those that don't see things as you do. We disagree on the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 4. Accept that. And maybe try to learn to disagree without making presumtions about folks or comming off as somehow more highly enlightnened.

TWI deserves the sarcasm (if that is what it is). If the leaders send the folowers out to unofficially "apologize" in an attempt to increase the ranks and therefore the ABS -- I see no good thing in that. It would be pure manipulation. Reconnections are up to the individuals themselves. If someone is shunning family and friends then they have the power to reach out and reconnect if possible --regardless of any kind of order or encouragment from leadership to "apologize." If TWI/BOD are waiting for test results of an unofficial apology blitz by the lower ranks before a formal apologies or personal contact is made -- then they are missing the boat. The BOD and other ltop eaders should "lead" by example, not have followers test the waters for them. Extending the olive branch is a gesture of peace. That TWI would want folks to quit warring againt them is obvious. All of the exposes and truth telling has taken a toll on thire numbers. However, if that gesture is to be considered credible, then TWI must do much more than have their followers offer apologies. While many did give ABS from the heart, believing that it went to God, others gave out of pressure and fear. Pressure an fear put upon them by TWI. Yet the fact remains that the money was collected by The Way International Incorporated, and much of it was used to support people and doctrines that did more harm than good. I don't think God really got a whole lot of that ABS. While I may have been blessed by the act of giving, others were harmed by supporting a corrupt organization. If an olive branch is being extended, check it carefully before taking it. The tree has not born much (if any) good fruit in quite some time.

Ciau is probably a misspelling for "ciao" which is Italian for goodbye. It is pronounced "chow" as in "ciao baby!"

Sudo, If it is any consolation, I am a Christian and I think Arinze is extremely misguided. He certainly does not speak for me.

According to thier anual reports submitted to the Arizona Corporate Commission, TWI's balance sheet has not changed much in the last three years. It remains right around the 50 million mark. If there is a money crunch, is has been in the last 6 months or so. Too bad we can't see what TWI's actual ABS income is. TWI generates revenue from 2 basic sources. Interest income on investments and donations (ABS). ABS is undoubtedly the financial life-blood if TWI. 2000 people giving only $100 per month amounts to about $2.4 million in income per year. 2000 people giving $200 per month is twice that or about 5 million. Interest income on $25 million ( asuming a nice 8 percent interest rate) amounts to about 2 million. Less than even the most conservative estimate of ABS When and if ABS ever becomes less than interest income, TWI will really begin to feel the crunch. They will have to make some hard financial decisions. Reduce staff, sell property, etc. OR ....they could go all out and actually try to recruit some new mullets... er followers. (which is not likely to happen) Maybe they are at that point now. Maybe they see it coming in the future ... we can only speculate. Apologies? TWI as an organization will never apologize. The BOD, past and present will never apologize. Even if they did, I doubt that it would make a difference as far as getting anyone to return, especially in the face of declining numbers and revenue. As for me, I would buy an apology from TWI about like I would buy one from Robert Tilton or Jimmy Swaggert.

Danny, I would guess that the poets and other writers reflected the general attitudes of their times. Yet I would have no doubt that there were exceptions ( Aren't there always? ) However, one thing I suspect may have been very odd to the Greeks,Romans and other pagans was the idea of the ressurection of the body. It seem to be pretty unique to Judaism and Christianity.

Alan, I forgot, but I had downloaded "The Prophecy" from thetimeline.org several months ago. I have read a good portion of it. It seem well done as far as end times predictions go, but I have got a problem with folks delaring when Jesus will return. The author Bill Ayles states: I submit to you that what awaits in this book is what the Lord God put in my mouth, so that our generation on Earth may be informed of its future, and that you may have the knowledge necessary to participate in divine prophecy. So he is saying in effect that these are not my words, but God's words. He finally comes to the point towards the end of the book and declares: The four winds are from the “east and west, from north and south.” This prophetic statement is placed in Psalm 107, for it marks the second coming of Christ to redeem his elect—IN CALENDAR YEAR 2007! So, according to Bill Ayles God has revealed to him that Jesus will return next year. This is God's Word according to Ayles. Alan, I truly hope he is correct. That would be great wouldn't it ? But being the skeptic I am regarding self-proclaimed modern-day prophets, I suspect that 2007 will come and go and excuses will be made as to why his prophecy failed. This has happend many times before with other "prophets" whose predictions failed in the past. I don't think I will sell the farm just yet.

Yes, I made that statement and I offered historical and scriptural support for that statement. But don't read into it more that is there. My contention is simply that in 1 Thessalonians 4 "those that are asleep" specifically refers to the physically dead in Christ. Why obfuscate things so? But, It's good to know that you can read my mind and see into my heart so that you know what I want and that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what will happen and what will not.

What people do you refer to Clay? And why on earth would you want to condemn them to hell? -- I surely don't. -- Isn't it God's job to judge? As I understand it there will also be a resurrection of the just and the unjust at some point. But eschatology is not really my strong point. I guess I am more concerned with the here and now, yet understanding that in the long run God will be fair and just on all men. But your comment kinda reminds me of a local Church of Christ fellow that lives near by. He sees going to hell in nearly every everthing. Like "Faith without works is dead". He thinks that implies "going to hell." Or if you are not saved then "you are going to hell". Eternal torture for those who do not accept Christianity and then only his particular brand of it. What's up with all this going to hell nonsense in Christianity anyway? The fact that there is going to be a rapture where the beleivers are gathered to the Lord, does not imply that the rest are gonna "go to hell" Where did you get that from ?

Yes, Clay, I undestand that you beleive this, yet you have not offered very much in the way of rational explanation of that belief. It seems you have pretty much delcared it by fiat and supported it by dumping loads of scriptures without really expounding upon them.

No, I haven't ... but maybe I will check it out.

1 Thessalonians was written by Paul to the church at Thessalonica from Corinth from between 51-53 AD. Thessalonica was a rather large Greek city rich in trade and culture. It was populated by people of diverse ethnic groups. Being a Greek city founded about 315 BC and named after Alexander the Great's sister , it was steeped in Greek culture that also permeated the non-Greeks there including the Jews who were Hellenized to some extent or another. The Greeks and other pagans did not believe in a ressurection or life after death. The idea of a ressurection was pretty much limited to the Jews (except for the sect of the Sadducees). Several Greek & Roman writers and poets evidence this. "Of a man once dead there is no resurrection." (Aeschylus Greek Playwright) "The sun can set and rise again; but once our brief light sets, there is one unending night to be slept through" (Catullus, a Roman poet). "Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope" (Theocritus, a Greek poet). Also, sexual purity was not considered a virtue on Greek and Roman culture. Demosthenes wrote: "We keep prostitutes for pleasure; we keep mistresses for the day to day needs of the body; we keep wives for the faithful guardianship of our homes." (Demosthenes) Sometime between about 50 & 52 AD Paul visited Thessalonica and stayed there for at about three weeks (maybe a bit longer) , where he preached Jesus as the Messiah, and Jesus death and resurrection. Some Jews and a great many "devout Greeks" believed.(Acts 17:1-4) A Christian "church" emerged there as a result. These devout Greeks were those that worshipped God at the synagogue and had rejected paganism. However, due to the jealousy of the Jews, Paul was ran out of Thessalonica in short order. Some Jews accepted Paul's gospel as well as many "devout Greeks", whose background was in paganism. It was about a year or so later that Paul writes his first letter to the Thessalonians. This the partial background leading up to Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James) 1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[a] us His Holy Spirit. The Church at Thessalonica was made up primarily of converted Gentiles. Paul exhorts them to sexual morality, which was basically unknown to the majority of Gentiles ( like the Gentiles "who do not know God" in verse 5 ). 9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, 12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing. Paul commends them on their brotherly love and encourages them to grow even more in it. They are exhorted to mind their own business, working with their hands ( as Paul had given example) "that" (for the purpose) they would walk properly towards those that are outside ( The AV reads "without" instead of without ). This is referring to physical work (with your own hands). "Those that are outside" - refers to those not within the congregation. Verse 11 and 12 are joined together with "that" the Greek "hina" meaning "so that" or "in order that" in a demonstrative sense. 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. "But" in verse 13 is the Greek "de" not "alla". De can be used in many different ways. In this case it serves to introduce a new train of thought. I could be just as well translated ... Now, or Now then ... The NLT renders it "and now". The Amplified uses "now also". The AV also uses "moreover" A good example is 1 Cor 16:1 where "de" (now) begins a new train of thought. My point here being that "but" in verse 13 does not contrast it with verse 12. "Those who have fallen asleep" is generally accepted to be a euphemism for those Christians that have died. I think this was the meaning intended by Paul. The Gentiles as in Catullus' example commonly referred to death as an eternal sleep. The OT uses sleep in reference to physical death (Deut 31:16, 2 Sam 7:12, Psa 13 Daniel 12:2) -- In the NT, Jesus uses sleep in regards to physical death (John 11:11-13). Acts 7:60 uses sleep in regards to Stephen's physical death. Death as we know , is not the only biblical usage of sleep. It is also used literally. It is also used to refer to spiritual slumber. However, different Greek words are used for sleep. In 4:13 the word for sleep is koimao, and in Chapter 5 verse 6 the word is katheudo. It may be a mistake to try and force the same meaning upon these words in all cases. Why would Paul use two different words for "sleep" in Chapters 4 & 5? "Those that have no hope" are those that do not believe in the resurrection as is well shown by the Greek (pagan )poet Theocritus who writes: "Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope". If someone does not believe in the existence of an afterlife then they have no hope for an afterlife. Upon the loss of a love one, this loss would then be seen as permanent. However, those that believe in Christ - his death and resurrection - do have hope for themselves and their loved ones in the event of physical death. Christians who understand the resurrection (not ignorant) should not sorrow for their dead love one as others that have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. Jesus was the "firstfruits". 1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. The death and resurrection of Jesus is our great example of hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose, so also we believe God will raise the faithful dead in Jesus at his coming. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. Those that are alive at Jesus return will not have precedence or advantage over the faithful that have died. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Jesus' return will be unmistakable. He will descend with a shout of authority - with the trump of an archangel. Trumpets were used in the OT as a call to gather God's people. The trump sound the call for this magnificent gathering of God's people. The dead will rise first and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then those that are alive will be changed and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then together they will be taken up to be with the Lord - always 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Considering the background of the Thessalonians, The Greek culture and beliefs, and the usage of "sleep" throughout the bible in regards to physical death, it is clear that "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to physical death of the faithful that had died. Paul wrote portions of chapter 4 and 5 so that Christians would not be ignorant about the faithful that had died -- not to sorrow in the same manner as others that have no hope but riather that they should have hope and comfort. That's my take on it.

Nope -- Never

And you tell them .... ?

Abigail Posted: " Sometimes the post of "fond rememberance" is posted by a PFAL/TWI/VPW fan as a counter to a thread where the topic may generally negative. For example, the thread may be about how as certain TWI doctrine was wrong or misapplied. And then invariably someone shows up and says how great it is. Usually the same few predictable posters. Same with other "negative" topics. According to the "About Us" page on the main site "Our mission is to provide information that tells the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY about The Way International and its trustees." Yet knowing the above, that GSCafe is basically an anti-TWI gathering place, someone will occasionally post a pro-TWI, pro-VPW or pro-PFAL post. It's their right I suppose, as the "About Us" page also says "all are welcome". -- But isn't doing that kinda like somone walking into a NAACP meeting and shouting how wonderful slavery was and how the KKK was really a godly Christian organization? I don't think it would go over too well. I think these posters or anyone posting pro-TWI or pro-VPW/PFAL stuff ought to realize that it may not go over too well here (and I suspect that most do.) Some may even do it antagonize (am I thinking evil?). I am not at all saying that they should not post here, but rather that they should brace themselves for some possibly strong "feedback". The pro PFAL\VPW fans have been giving "feedback" on threads here for years. Why should it be any different for them when they post ?

Abigail, I can't think of but maybe one or two posters here who hold on to "all" of PFAL. Even then I don't see anyone trying to "force" them to reject all of it. Same with those who still hold on to "some" of PFAL. I still believe some of PFAL, not because it is PFAL, but because some of PFAL is pretty standard fare. Yet no one has ever tried to force me to reject it all ... There is one poster here who believes that PFAL "IS" the Word of God, and he actively promotes that belief. That poster may get hounded a bit, but IMO it is not to get him to reject all of PFAL. -- And besides, no one could force that poster to do anything anyway -- even if they did try. I guess what I am saying, is that I don't really see that happening. Did I miss something ?

I'll leave talking to the dead to Jesus.

Allen, For Gods sake lay off will you? Just because Todd, Clay and thousands if not millons of other Christians espouse a different approach to scriptual understanding than you or I ( yours and mine are different by the way) does not mean they are serving Satan ...Stop adding fuel to the fire. Discuss the topic at hand .. Which is 1 Thessolonians 4. Either that or get out of the thread. That is what I tried to do from the get go, discuss 1 Thessalonians 4, but I don't seem to have the stomach for any longer. It' s not that important anyway.