CKnapp3

Response to Def So you don't believe I'm anointed of the Lord eh? Then suppose you tell me who is, you wiseass. And when you do, you should follow ALL his advice, for YOU have put HIM on a pedastal. I didn't put myself on any pedastal. All you are doing is trying to justify your vicious hate. You say you exalt Jesus? Then why haven't you taken His advice? Jesus said to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, and to DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO DO YOU EVIL, and to BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU (and that means BLESS and NOT CURSE BACK), that you may be A CHILD OF GOD. Would God do any different? But you showed us whose child YOU are. Your father is Satan, and the works of Satan you do indeed. I told you the truth and you didn't believe me. I don't seek my own glory, neither do I walk in pride. But YOU do! What charge do you want to lay on me, you who are so righteous? So far you only have charged me with a Mickey Mouse one of "offering mere opinion". I am convinced that your heart is very calloused, and that there is no amount of reasoning I can lay on you. Only God alone can touch your heart, and evidently at this time He has chosen not to. Jesus also said you will know them by their fruits, and yours is ROTTEN TO THE CORE!!!! And what do you think YOU are doing? I could easily agree with you, but you would only exalt yourself an rub my nose in it. Ok, consider this if you will: you, Mark, and I, ALL THREE OF US ARE RIGHT!!!!!! How can that be you ask? Go figure it out, you're a smart man. Oh, I should put away MY anger, but God can kindle his own wrath eternally. Who the hell are YOU to tell me to put away anger??? Sounds like the God you serve Def is nothing but a hypocrite, not to meniton a LIAR!!!!! Read Psalm 30:4-6 It says God's wrath is only for a MOMENT, but YOU teach God's wrath is ETERNAL. Also read Proverbs 15:1-3. It says soft words turn away wrath, but hard words kindle anger. You wonder why my anger is kindled, it's because you are hitting me with hard words on behalf of your dishonest God, who has a never ending wrath in spite of His own promise that His anger is but only for a moment. Hey, like father, like son! I have said nothing but kind words to you and you have chosen to rub my nose in them. Yeah, maybe I don't take Jesus' advice very well, He said "Cast not your pearls before the swine, neither give holy things to dogs! Lest they trample on them and then turn and rend you!" I guess that's my sin, in telling you that your salvation is sure, I cast my pearls before a pig and a gave a holy thing to a dog, namely YOU!!!!!!!!! Why not just tell us here in the forum? Do you have something to be ashamed of? I'm sure everyone would love to hear your testimony. I have no reason to dread the Day of His Coming. And I guess you don't either, which is fine. And even if I'm not caught up in the clouds at the rapture, I'm going to take that as an indication that the Lord has called me to stay behind and fight. AND FIGHT I WILL!!!!! What do you expect, to be caught up in the clouds? If so, YOU COWARD!!!!! But it is also written "he who overcomes shall inherit ALL THINGS". So go ahead and fly away!!!!!!!! See if you overcome anything and will inherit anything!!!!!!

Incidenlty, The Apostle Paul NEVER once warned anyone about hellfire for all eternity. He did often warn about destruction however, a type of warning that even atheists today take heed on. But he never warned about an endless burning hell waiting to torture sinners for all eternity. Why was this? Was Paul derelect in his duty and calling as an apostle? He was considered the greatest apostle of the first century. And look at his historical background! It seems the ones who have the worst sins and get the greatest amount of forgiveness are the ones that have the most mercy. After all, much was given to them, so they have much to give. Def on the other hand was probably born with a silver bible in his mouth. So goody-goody-two-shoes himself. It's a wonder why he even accepted Jesus, since he hardly needs him. And because he was so righteous, he got very little forgiveness if any, therefore he has virtually no forgiveness to offer you or anyone else. The bible is full of stories of those who have received great forgiveness being the most loving people while those who received very little forgiveness being rather uppity. Just like those Pharisees. They were insulted because they thought they deserved to have Jesus in their company, but instead He rather would have the company of the sinners. And Jesus himself said he didn't call them to repentenance. I guess Def wasn't really called to repentenance either since he is so righteous it's flowing out of his ears. And neither was he called to proclaim The Gospel either, he even said his calling "was to warn!" I almost want to compare Def with the prodigal son's older brother. You know the story, and when the prodigal son returned, the father embraced him and gave him a super-big feast. The older brother was offended because he knew the prodigal son had wasted his life, but was given a great welcome home celebration, while he on the other hand never got such a benefit, though he felt he should have because of his self assured faithfulness. Of course the prodigal son had to suffer much before he could repent. Before that, he had lived riotously, squandering his inhertance on anything from luscious food to the sexiest whores. What Def doesn't understand is that in order for a person to repent, he has to have a reason to. As long as the prodigal son had plenty of money and tons of pleasure, he had no reason to return to his father either. Only when a famine broke out, and a crisis resulted from it, and he was forced to take a job feeding pigs, and got no reward except the same food the pigs ate, that he realized his sorry state. And to think, he was even willing to make himself a hired servant of his father! He knew the blessings that he had with his father, but at the time felt some need to go on a vagabond. And likewise, an unsaved sinner is in a state where he is not being plagued by any crisises, so as long as that's the case, he continues on with his hedonistic lifestyle. Only when something in his life goes amok will he recognize the need for salvation. Perhaps this will only take place AFTER HE IS DEAD, and yes, he will recognize the need for a saviour then, and he will in fact be tormented! Question, did the prodigal son's father say to him, "you made your decision by YOUR OWN FREE WILL to leave me, tough luck Charlie!"???? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!! Yet according to Def, this is just how God is going to regard those who only repent after they have died from their natural lives. I tell you, if that is what God is like, wouldn't you say the prodigal son's father is much more loving than God? BUT WE KNOW BETTER!!!!!!!! And when that sinner repents and turns to God under such conditions, in spite of what Def proclaims, GOD WILL NOT CAST HIM AWAY!!!!!! And I can assure you, Def, if he knows such a person, will take gross offense at such a person being forgiven, just like the prodigal son's older brother did. Def, I would take heed to that parable if I were you.

This is an interesting piece of literature. Click on the link, and then save it to your hard drive, and then open it using either Wordpad or Microsoft Word. Why We Hardly Love God

According to what you believe Def, God IS limited when it comes to salvation. He has limited salvation only to those who believe, according to you. The word "eternity" comes from the Latin word "aeternus", which comes from the Latin word "aevum", meaning "age". Therefore "eternity" and "age" are apparently synonymous. Age is always a definite period of time, so eternity must be too. Time, or should I say eternity, is always measurable. We have assumed that eternity has no beginning and no end. Theoretically this is true in respect to us, but we are finite beings, with a beginning, and an end. The time that passes during our lifetime can be construed as "eternity". I don't see it as illogical to talk about "before eternity" and "after eternity". We generally consider eternity to be immeasurable, but what really is happening is that time has come to a theoretical standstill in eternity. But in reality time moves constantly. We generally agreee that there will be an "end of time". A moment in time is eternity. But that "eternity" had a beginning, and also has an end. How long does one second last? Well, ONE SECOND! Yet one second can be construed as eternity per se. So what we generally believe is that time will never end, which is why we believe eternity will never end. Time will constantly move, therefore the "end of time" is sort of a misnomer, it should be the "end of the age", and yes, the "end of eternity" as well. If time has an end, then so does space for that matter. Time and space work hand in hand. Speed is of course the rate of motion in relationship to time and space. So in reality, its the passing of time that is infinitive, NOT ETERNITY. Though we could say that all time per se is one big eternity, to define eternity as without end is incorrect, it's (the passing of) time that is endless. Yes, God was before us, and he is after us, which would make him without a beginning and an end, IN RESPECT TO OUR EXISTENCE. But does that mean God has NO absolute beginning, and NO absolute end? This is what man has no doubt assumed. Another topic for another thread. But in closing, I was talking about speed being the rate of motion between time and space. Speed is always expressed in the formula space/time. Therefore if time ends, then space would have to also, else you would have an illogical equation 5 miles/0 time. Zero divided into an absolute value has no logical answer. But zero divided into itself always equals infinity. Therefore 0 miles/0 time = ? , theoretically, if time stopped, then matter would be theoretically travelling at speeds 900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+x the speed of light (186,000 miles/sec.), which is scientifically impossible. Therefore I can safely assume that time will continue to pass endlessly. One more thing, I see an indication that "time" is NEVER translated from the Greek word "aion" or any root word thereof. There is a Hebrew word, "olam", that has been both translated "time" and "eternity" and "everlasting", but it seems to be related to a defnite period rather than infinity. Hmmm, I think I may have even learned a lesson while I was typing this post :)-->

Def59 said: Ok, I'll stand corrected, but you no doubt hold allegiance to a verison of the bible that caters to your eternal torment belief. There are other versions of the bible that do not teach eternal torment at all! But you would no doubt dismiss those versions as being evil. Also if you are convinced that I'm nothing but a Satanically inspired liar, I feel sorry for you. I have told you that your salvation is sure, but maybe I was lying there too. Maybe you are going to end up in the hell you warn others about. Is that what you want to hear? You want me to tell you that God is going to torture you forever unless you toe the line? What are you, a masochist? People who want to speak words that comfort, you want to condemn them as being of Satan. Would you rather have a maniac talk to you? How about a terrorist? Since you are not going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven anyway, and I've showed you from YOUR beloved scriptures why, then maybe you had better stock up on ice cubes. Because according to YOUR OWN words, that will be your fate. As it is written, "by your own words you are justified, and by your own words you are condmened!" What proof have you offered? All you have done is quote your interpretation of the bible. And perhaps you can charge me with the same. So tell me Def, what is the objective of this thread that you have started? The last two quotes have you charging me with offering nothing more than opinion. The words of the prophets, and subsequently your bible, are no less opinion than my words. So what is your point?

Unless otherwise noted, the quotes are all from Def59 And you sure give Satan a helping hand by fending off people from Christ so they'll want NOTHING to do with Him. Would you accept a Christ who hates your guts? Jesus said NO SUCH THING. He was a Jew, and NO JEW believes in that crap. I suppose you think Jesus is an Aryan? When Jesus pays the price due for sin, why do call that truth a lie? For you teach that man owes God eternal torment in hell, yet Jesus can satisfy the payment by merely dying on a cross and get raised 3 days later. Jesus no doubt is not suffering eternal torment, yet he paid the price for sin. Therefore when you teach that man must suffer eternal torment as a payment for sin, you have in fact lied to him. You have no doubt done everything to try to defeat the Gospel. Explain the justice in torturing someone for 900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ years for only about 70 years of sin. Sounds like injustice to me. You will also be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Think otherwise? Then you know NOTHING about the Gospel. Then why do you bring misery to hapless sinners? You let corrupt communications come out of your mouth instead of words that are good to the use of edifying and therefore minsiter grace to the hearers (Eph. 4:29). That is probably the base reason many reject your message. YOU LIAR!!!!!! Read Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away ALL tears from their eyes; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH, NEITHER SORROW, NOR CRYING, NEITHER shall there be ANY MORE PAIN: FOR THE FORMER THINGS ARE ALL PASSED AWAY!!!!!!" This is a verse from your very own bible you hold so dear, why do you call this a lie? For you teach that your enemies will suffer pain FOR ALL ETERNITY. So you are called to warn eh? You were not called to proclaim the Gospel eh? And besides, it's not the sinner's fault that he is a sinner. If you say otherwise, then you are lying. Want to see a real miscarriage of Justice? Adam and Eve in heaven while Hitler is in hell! If it weren't for Adam and Eve, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO HITLER!!!!! I've pointed out various scriptures you don't believe! So don't give me your B.S. about how you believe the scriptures. Careful with that question! You have no doubt rejected Him because you have rejected ME, who speaks on His behalf as I'm moved by The Spirit. Therefore you should get the reward you prescribe to others that you say reject The Lord. You have dismissed everything I have said as being Satanically inspired. If Satan inspires me, who inspires you? And don't tell me The Holy Spirit, because you have adamantly stressed that you get your faith FROM THE SCRIPTURES!!!!

#13. In all 33 years of my driving expereience, I never once ever received a ticket for any moving violation. I was in an accident only once, and it was so mickey mouse that I didn't even have to report it to the motor vehicle department. To this day, I continue to have a perfect driving record.

Well, I've gotten a few good deals on e-bay, including my CD boombox, which can also play CD-RW and mp3 music. Brand new is almost 100 dollars but I only paid 40. I didn't come with the remote that comes with it brand new, but hey, i don't need a remote, and if I do, I can always contact Sony (the make of the player). I've had it for almost 2 years and it plays great! Also I sold my old desktop shortwave radio reciever, and using the "buy now" option, it got snatched up for $50.00. I'm sure the buyer was satisfied, though he didn't leave feedback, I'm sure if there were a problem I would have at least gotten negative feedback. Haven't made any purchases lately, but sometimes I look for bargains or just browse.

Def, you ask where I get my inspiration, obviously from the Holy Spirit. I had first considered Universalism as a possibility 18 years ago. Without being exposed to any Universalist literature, I have done some studying to determine if Universalism could be true. I have determined that it was. Now I know it has to be true, because it was only about maybe 7 years ago when I was first exposed to Universalist literature, and I find that they drew the exact same conclusions that I have drawn. Coincidence???? Do you want to dismiss this as devils communicating? Remember, Jesus was also accused of being in league with Satan. Why would Satan want anyone to believe that they will live where nothing but peace and safety prevail constantly? I would think Satan is the one who wants people to be afraid of hell, with all the worst things that could happen imaginable. And if you have Satan's favor, he might convince you that you will be making life miserable for your enemies, and therefore you yourself will be happy. My happiness doesn't require making people's lives miserable. My own happiness can only be guaranteed on condition that all will eventually be brought to happiness. Therefore Def, because you believe that many will be eternally unhappy, your own happiness in eternity has no guarantee. If you think otherwise, you could very will be deceiving yourself. I do believe you will (if you have yet to be) be saved, but not until you see the error of your ways. At least under my belief system, when you see the error of your ways, you still have hope. Under your own, a person will be forced to see the error of his ways, and will also be brought to an understanding that he has lost all hope. You definitely subscribe to the slogan of Hades, "Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter".

Fair enough with me Mark, also check your private topics.

If anyone really wants to sincerely discuss Biblical Universalism, let me know and I'll start a private topic. Otherwise, I'm going to ask Paw to close this thread.

You might do well to read II Peter 1:20-21. It tells you plainly that inspiration cannot be put clearly in human terms. It is only vague. As far as the bible being your rule of faith, you swear by the letter of the word, and NOT by the Spirit of the letter. That is why your devotion to it is idolatrous. You're right up there with the Pharisees and Scribes. With all your bible knowledge, you could be prime choice to do Satan's bidding, since he loves to quote scripture. In the past several days I find that the more I answer your questions, the more you want to argue. Just what do you think you will accomplish by arguing with Mark and I? That you are a biblical know-it-all? Perhaps John, chapt. 5 could apply to you, particularly verses 39 and 40. You trust more in your King James Bible more than you do God. I pointed out from your own beloved bible that you are NOT going to inherit the Kingdom of God because you fit one of the criteria for disqualification. What? You expect the inheritance? Then you could be the one that will be "weeping and gnashing his teeth" in the outer darkness, because you missed out on the inhertiance you so desired, and perhaps even LUSTED (yes, I do mean LUSTED!) after. But you take that as a warning to the world, when it is in fact a warning TO THE CHURCH! Therefore you feel since that warning doesn't apply to you, you disregard it and pay no heed. I'm convinced that you are hard headed and proud, and then you come back and falsely accuse me of blasphemy. OK, if I'm guilty of blasphemy, PROVE IT!!!!!

And not to derail this thread, but "Cheers" was not exactly my favorite sitcom ;)-->

I don't get revelation for one thing, I get INSPIRATION, and it only contradicts YOUR INTERPRETATION of the bible. And besides, even the bible contradicts itself, and don't tell me any BS to the contrary. You are talking about varying cultures and vernaculars in the various books, so the contradictions should come as no suprise to you. And the bible per se IS NOT God's word. What you are preaching is YOUR OWN interpretation of the bible. It is not blasphemy to call a bunch of empty words without spirit BS, why do you say otherwise? You're right, Satan only APPEARS as an angel of light, but you say he IS an angel of light. Why?

Hi Mark S., I always thought you were the peacemaker, even when you and I disagreed on a few things. Welcome :)--> I really don't think Def wants to learn anything, I think he only wants to debate his cause

Def, Neal Punt IS NOT A UNIVERSALIST!!!! He is in fact a CALVINIST!!!!! He said so!!!! You obviously only read a small portion of it and drew a quick conclusion without reading everything. In fact, you are not really following along this thread, you are only concentrating on the things I AM saying and not anything else. If you had even been following this thread, you would have read my opinion about Neal Punt and his "biblical universalism" website several posts back. I said it once, and I'm saying it again, you are only here to debate, you really don't want to learn If you want to know about TRUE universalism, click THIS link Tentmaker Ministries That "biblicaluniversalism" website is not something I agree with, so Don't call it MY website!!!

Def59 asks: How do you know Jesus was referring to an eternal fire? Again, you are going by your translation of your bible. Jesus did make references to "gehenna", which has been mistranslated "hellfire", but that is located SW of Jerusalem, not in the subterranean underworld. "Gehenna" should be translated "The Valley of Hinnom", which has a real geographical location. (I even have photos of the place if you want to see them). And I can assure you, the "fires of hell" fizzled out 15 centuries ago. I have also told you that "eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word "aion", which should be translated "age". An "age" has limitations. When it talks for instance in Revelation about "being tormeneted FOREVER AND EVER", that is a mistranslation. "forever and ever" should read "from one age to the next". In short, when the next age comes, the torment should end. PERIOD! There are even bibles that DON'T teach eternal torment at all. You ask me if all the bibles are wrong. Do you think THOSE bibles are wrong?

Def, number one, YOU are the one that called me to this debate, I didn't call you to one. Therefore if you feel insulted or cursed, then that's your problem. Besides, I think you would find God insulting to find that He is not only what I say He is, but a whole lot more ;)--> I will be honest though, I would find YOUR God worse than insulting, I'd find him nothing but plain sewage! I said "You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured." I didn't accuse you of being a Calvinist, I was comparing your beliefs to one. I said YOU SOUND LIKE ONE, not YOU ARE ONE. Like a Calvinist, you believe everyone will live forever, only many will live in endless torture. You are right, a Calvinist who believes in free will is in fact an oxymoron. Who are you NOT to judge? Isn't that cute??? You glorify God more than yourself. Problem is you don't give God ALL the glory! If you believe in a God who will save millions, why can't you believe in a God who will save ALL???? But man, with his FREE WILL has the power to thrwart God's sovereignty, right? God wills Hitler to be saved, but Hitler is so much mightier than God that he can prevent his own salvation. Sounds to me like a God who is anything but sovereign. Or better yet, Satan is even mightier, since he can have the whole world turn their backs on God. Sounds to me like you give Satan a whole lot of glory. Oh yes, that explains it! The reason you don't give God ALL THE GLORY, is because you give Satan some, if not a great deal of it, too. What gives? Do you have divided loyalty? So you will the salvation of ALL men do you???? Do you pray for the salvation of ALL men??? And if so, why would God not answer your prayers??? It is written, "the fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I get it, it is also written "God doesn't hear the prayers of an unrighteous man". That would explain it clearly to me. Also why would you belittle those who are yet to have the Holy Spirit? Were you belittled in the days when YOU were void of the Holy Spirit? Let me ask you this, Def. If you will the salvation of ALL men, then why do you lack the balls to hold God to his will (which you believe is tantamount to a promise) when you share the same desires? What? Scared God is going find you in disfavor for rebuking Him? You want God's favor come hell or high water. What if it turns out God is really an @$$hole? Still want his favor? As far as laughing at you is concerned, you're beliefs about hell are so hideously atrocious its NO LAUGHING MATTER. Yes Def, you are going to heaven based on my beliefs, and so is everyone else. Why do you refuse to share that with people? Jesus said, "FREELY you have received, FREELY give!" You don't give freely! You only give if a person meets your criteria. Like Jesus questioned, "what reward do you have? don't sinners do the same?" You are only willing to tell a person he is saved if he says "yes" to your interpretation of the Gospel. You are not even willing to tell a person that someday he will be saved, if he isn't at the present time. That's why I'm disturbed at you. Because like the Pharisees, you shut the Kingdom of Heaven off from the people. I know, it's not easy to do that, and believe me brother, there are some people who .... me off so badly I could just beat them with a baseball bat. But I would think that such a threat would compel a person to repent, unless that same person were mentally retarded, but then a retarded person would hardly give me a reason to want to batter him. Yet it is written "the GOODNESS of God leads to repentenance". That's what separates me (and everyone else for that matter) from God. God can compel repentenance by good, where you and I would have to threaten evil to compel repentanance. In closing, all I have to say is my aim is to convey words on people that help. Not boast in how much bible knowledge I have amassed. Def, you probably know the bible backwards and fowards, and sideways, and upside down even, and perhaps I know very little by comparison. But that's just it, all you have is bible knowledge, and without the Spirit of God behind it, the bible is only a bunch of B.S. (on a side note, I made such a proclamation last summer, much to the offense of many, including one guy in particular. I concluded that the particular person was only making an idol out of his bible. I may have lost a friend, but then he was probably never a friend to begin with. Besides, I can do without THAT kind of friendship. Def, perhaps you too make an idol out of the bible.) One more thing, if I say something that is not in the bible, would it occur to any of you that The Holy Spirit may have given me the words to speak? God surely doesn't limit His words to that "big black book" :)-->

Question Def, why do you compliment my faith if you adamantly disagree with it? If you truly thought my beliefs were wrong you would be deploring me for my ignorance. Just kind of curious.

And Def, I'm not offended that you quote bible verses so much as I'm disturbed at your arrogance in doing so. If you showed a little more humility, it would make a whole lot of difference. :)--> What? You think I AM arrogant? How do you figure? I believe in the salvation of all. How do you consider that arrogance? No person who is arrogant would agree with me. It takes a whole chunk of humility to believe what I believe.

Sunesis said: Then tell me, did God have a foreknowledge that Lucifer was going to rebel and become Satan? Was this against God's will?? Then God must be some stupid idiot to create some angel he knows is going to rebel AGAINST HIS WILL. Is any man this stupid???? Either God is in control, or there is chaos beyond God's control. And if God cannot control chaos, then how in the hell can you expect Him to bring about peace??? HUH??? And incidently, the bible doesn't teach that Satan was second in command. How can you say otherwise? Jesus said something to the contrary, that Satan was A MURDERER FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!!!!!! Was Jesus telling a lie? If Satan was a murderer from the very beginning, then he was NEVER on God's side. God created Satan evil, he was NEVER good. Neither does the bible teach that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same. That is a tradition of men, not a doctrine of God.

Then Def, the bible is a blatant lie because it promised the ABSOLUTE defeat of Satan. According to what you believe, if it holds true, than Satan is anything but defeated! Why he has won most of the souls and will get to torutre them for eternity. You no doubt buy into this freedom of will thing, which would no doubt show man's sovereignty over God's. You sound like a die hard Calvinist to think everyone will live forever, only many will be endlessly torutured. Does this make you happy? Would you enjoy seeing your enemies tortured forever in hell? NO you say???? You sure approve of the God who would sentence such a person to a horribly imagined (AND I DO MEAN IMAGINED) fate. Why? Because in your own heart, you truly hate your enemies, so much so that you would love to see them tortured forever. Also there you go with that CHANCE bulls**t again. For the last time it's GRACE!!!!! I see you as someone who no doubt hates sound doctrine, and will do everything he can to justify his own hate filled arguments. What?? You accuse ME of hating sound doctrine??? DO NOT CALL BURN FOREVER IN HELL SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!!!! IT IS NOT SOUND DOCTRINE!!!!! IT'S ONLY THE DOCTRINE OF MADMEN AND EVIL HEARTS!!!!!! Just because The Way was wrong doesn't mean that mainstream Christianity is right. It's in deed wrong. It's only that The Way is just as wrong. In fact, I see you so ignorant, you don't even know why the fire in that lake is even burning with brimstone! Tell me Def, are you anti-abortion??? Why, so that life can end up in hell like you would like it to be?? I can't think of any other reason you would want to spare an unborn child except to sacrifice it to Satan yourself. If there is an ever burning hell, then abortion is a SACRAMENT!!!!! You blame a sinner for something that isn't even his fault. HOW DARE YOU!!!!!! Your own bible makes it crystal clear that we are born in sin. Don't give me this "free will" crap! Nobody sins by his own free will, and there is no bible verse you can use to argue otherwise, and if there is, then that shows how inconsistent the bible is and therefore cannot be a reliable source for truth of its own self. As far as I'm concerned YOU have fallen from grace, since you want to be justified by your works, done by YOUR OWN FREE WILL. So you believe God will reject those who reject Him? Then consider yourself rejected of God, since you reject Him yourself. What??? You don't reject God??? Def, you might as well confess you are not a sinner, which would of course be a blatant lie! Why would you accept a Jesus you don't need if you are sinless???? I would say that Romans, Chapt. 1, would definitely apply to you!!!!! The base problem with you Def is no doubt PRIDE!!!! You are too proud to have someone like Hitler in paradise with you, even if God could transform Hitler into a saint. You are too proud to even forgive Hitler. If you don't forgive, then how dare you expect forgiveness yourself???? And if you won't preach mercy unto all, how dare you expect mercy??? As it is written, blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy! You sound to me like someone who lacks mercy. "But they haven't repented", you say. Hey, Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, and they were ANYTHING BUT REPENTANT!!!! But I do understand Def, you cannot forgive if you have been forgiven very little. And you cannot be mericful if you haven't been given very much mercy. I think the problem is in the God you choose to serve. He sounds like a control freak, much worse than VPW or LCM. Believe me, I'm not surprised that you rebut me in my beliefs, becuase they are not popular ones, but then Jesus wasn't popular either. You definitely won't preach a God of mercy and forgiveness if you are the subject of one who is merciless and unforgiving. Im not going to continue responding to you much longer, because I'm convinced all you want to do is debate me, which is one of the works of the flesh believe it or not. (The Greek word for "strife" in Galatians 5:20 is "eris", which can also be translated "debate"! There! I even quoted some scripture with a reference. Satisfied?) Therefore I can safely conclude that you are not going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven yourself according to Galatians Chapt. 5 (You show to have a problem with Galatians from a previous post in this thread). While we are on the subject of Galatians Chapt. 5, notice also the Fruits of the Spirit mentioned, particularly gentleness and goodness. I have concurred with you that your salvation is sure, but you resent me when I also extend such gentleness and goodness to our enemies. Why did you rub my nose in it? Do you hate the Fruits of the Spirit that much?? Hey, I have had a lot of enemies, and nobody wants to be vindicated more than me! (If a Jew knew what I went through growing up, they would make me an honorary Jew! ) But there is no profit in subjecting one's enemies to endless torture, not to mention the fact that you might have to face such a punishment yourself if you wish such on others. As it is also written, "with what mete you measure it, it will be measured unto you!" In short, you are going to be judged according to the standards of your own judgements. Don't want to go to hell??? Then you better purge yourself of such beliefs!!!! Want mercy? Then purge yourself of a merciless heart (or ask God to purge it from you). If you want to learn about universal salvation, fine, I'll be more than happy to share my faith with you. But if you are only looking for a debate and to find fault, you are just wasting my time, and your own.

Sunesis, you said: "You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history)." I don't believe Satan has any plans of his own, God gave Satan what power he has. It is written,(this is God speaking) "I will have compassion on whom I will, and will harden whom I will". God for instance hardened the Pharoah's heart that "He may show his power to Israel". Does God need Satan? Yes and No. God doesn't need Satan to exercise his power. However we wouldn't know God's goodness with out the contrast of evil, which Satan is commissioned to exercise. It is written that God creates both good AND EVIL. Satan is NOT the creator of evil, GOD IS. And one day, when its work is finished, God will destroy evil and Satan both. But I don't think Satan will vanish into some sort of phantom existence. It's likely he will be recreated for some other purpose that God has in his own plans. Just like when you dismantle an old worn out automobile. That particular automobile has been in fact DESTROYED. The steel used in that auto is recycled and made into something else, perhaps a another new automobile. Better still, what about beating (DESTROYING) our swords (instruments of death) into plowshares (instruments of life), as it is so written? I believe Hitler was part of God's plan, perhaps to punish Israel one more time because they strayed away, something they are famous for doing. What happened 3 years after the fall of Hitler? Israel was returned to the Jews after they were in exile for almost 19 centuries. :)--> And Christianity better take heed and also heed the warning of Jesus, who said "except you repent, you will likewise perish"! I see another rise of a Hitler type dictator, and this time he will be after Christians. Well, look what's happening to Christians in this country. They cry that their rights are constantly being violated by the ACLU for instance. Communism has also been proven to be a threat to the church. And though it has fallen, it could easily rise again (what is the prophecy about the beast with the deadly wound that was healed?). Incidently, Communism IS NOT A THREAT to the saints :)--> It never was, and never will be. But to the filthy whoremongering churches, it can pose a BIG threat.

Def59 said: Hebrews 12:29 for our “God is a consuming fire.” [ Deut. 4:24] And Def, if you plan on spending eternity with God, I'd take heed to that if I were you ;)--> I believe we all will be cast into the lake of fire, and many will acutally come out smelling like a rose :)-->

I've already quoted you some. If you are looking for references, I don't remember the references offhand, and I don't have the time to get them. I suggest you make use of a good conconrdance if you need to find the references for yourself. Besides, quoting references sounds to me like being a show-off. Jesus never quoted them, so why should I. But while we are on the subject of bible knowledge, you can know every single word in the bible and yet have NO LOVE! It is also written: "Knowledge makes you proud, but love builds" I would rather be in the company of someone who lacked bible knowledge and had lots of love than someone who has a bunch of bible knowledge and have lots of hate. Furhtermore, the loving person who lacks bible knowledge isn't going to have any means of deceiving me. BTW, the word "eternal" in eternal punishemnt is the Greek word "aion" and should mean "for an age", not "all endless time" The purpose of punishment is for correction, not for revenge. And as far as God sending a flood is concerned, God can destroy, and he can rebuild from the ruins too. Do you believe this Def? Never mind what the bible might say. I'm not asking you what the bible says, I'm asking you what YOU believe. But if you must go by the bible, I've said this time and time again that it is written: NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD. OK, maybe I'm saying everyone is going to heaven as a vernacular, since everyone equates heaven with eternal life. It isn't so much everyone is going to heaven as much as it is NOBODY is going to hell forever. I do believe everyone will live in paradise. There is a difference between paradise and heaven of course. Besides, what exactly is hell anyway? The bible also says that hell will be destroyed! So much for your "eternal" hell. Also it is written "There will be NO MORE PAIN". THERE!!!! That statement is an absolute one, not a relative one. TWI had that one right,(though it's not unique to them) though their reasoning may be a little faulty.